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<blockquote data-quote="steeldragons" data-source="post: 6176277" data-attributes="member: 92511"><p>When did anyone ever talk about "Vancian magic" before 3e?</p><p></p><p>I recall talking about "memorized spells", "fire n' forget", even sometimes "prepared spells" for the day. The "sorcerer" class (which in itself is another example worthy of mention in this thread) came along and offered "spontaneous casting." Suddenly "wizards" (unnecessary name change/didn't/never/still don't like) were "vancian casters."</p><p></p><p>Sorcerer is a separate class. Like the Warlock example listed at the beginning of this thread. No...Sorcerer is any MU of a certain level (I think it was 7th, but don't quote me).</p><p></p><p>Magic-user: BX/BECMI and 1e; Mage in 2e; Wizard<em> and </em>Sorcerer as separate things in 3; Wizard, Sorcerer and Warlock as separate things in 4e. I know wizardly-specialists existed in 3e, but were they actual specializations or separate classes or PRs?</p><p></p><p>There's one! "Class." There's a class which originally included "race", then race and class were separate...and there were classes and SUB-classes, then you added Kits to your classes to come up with different sub-classes of the classes you knew, then came the Prestige Classes...which mandated the understanding that there are separate "base" classes...and I understand there are now "Essentials" classes that are not the same as 4e classes...And in 5e the terms base and sub-classes are starting to mean certain, different, getting confusing kinda things.</p><p></p><p>And what is or is not a "sub-class" seems to be a bone of some contention for many. That, somehow, as opposed to it being just some class that thematically fits in with/beneath the umbrella of a broader "base class", a "sub-class" is immediately seen as somehow inferior and that to somehow not disrespect the class, it has to be its "own" class versus a "sub class"...which to me simply reads as nonsense. Something being a "sub class" in no way diminishes the kind of character you want to have.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="steeldragons, post: 6176277, member: 92511"] When did anyone ever talk about "Vancian magic" before 3e? I recall talking about "memorized spells", "fire n' forget", even sometimes "prepared spells" for the day. The "sorcerer" class (which in itself is another example worthy of mention in this thread) came along and offered "spontaneous casting." Suddenly "wizards" (unnecessary name change/didn't/never/still don't like) were "vancian casters." Sorcerer is a separate class. Like the Warlock example listed at the beginning of this thread. No...Sorcerer is any MU of a certain level (I think it was 7th, but don't quote me). Magic-user: BX/BECMI and 1e; Mage in 2e; Wizard[I] and [/I]Sorcerer as separate things in 3; Wizard, Sorcerer and Warlock as separate things in 4e. I know wizardly-specialists existed in 3e, but were they actual specializations or separate classes or PRs? There's one! "Class." There's a class which originally included "race", then race and class were separate...and there were classes and SUB-classes, then you added Kits to your classes to come up with different sub-classes of the classes you knew, then came the Prestige Classes...which mandated the understanding that there are separate "base" classes...and I understand there are now "Essentials" classes that are not the same as 4e classes...And in 5e the terms base and sub-classes are starting to mean certain, different, getting confusing kinda things. And what is or is not a "sub-class" seems to be a bone of some contention for many. That, somehow, as opposed to it being just some class that thematically fits in with/beneath the umbrella of a broader "base class", a "sub-class" is immediately seen as somehow inferior and that to somehow not disrespect the class, it has to be its "own" class versus a "sub class"...which to me simply reads as nonsense. Something being a "sub class" in no way diminishes the kind of character you want to have. [/QUOTE]
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