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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AlexofBarbaria" data-source="post: 9641489" data-attributes="member: 7035226">Invalidate -- make pointless. I know OP has said RPGing isn't necessarily pointless even if they players have no agency. I guess I agree, but would argue that even playstyles requiring player agency work with trad GM power.I don't know how to play bridge, but if the players have a conversation about what should be done with the dummy hand (as happens constantly between the GM and players in an RPG) they share control, unless one player has no capacity to influence the other.That's not clear to me. I can think of many situations where people share control over something, even when one person has the final say.If I convince my boss at work that a project is worth doing, is that not an expression of agency because they had final say?Does a film director not have any agency at all unless they have final cut?What about sports like boxing, figure skating or gymnastics where the winner is decided by a judge? Are those sham competitions because to some degree the outcome is up to the judges' whim?In each case I would say of course they have agency, assuming they have at least some influence over the judge.Furthermore we can usually identify capricious or biased judges. So rules preventing them from acting this way aren't necessary. Same thing with GMs and RPGs. Players can tell when they don't have any influence over the game and tend to leave games like that. There are mechanisms to correct the problem on the meta-game level.Let me pose a question: do you agree there's an important difference re agency between each of these cases?a) player A's GM is completely unpredictable and ignores player inputb) player B's GM has final say but is consistent and open to player inputc) player C and their GM are bound by the rules to roll dice checks to resolve any disagreements between themIf so, how do you describe it? I would say only player A has no agency at all. I'm not even sure C has more agency than B. It depends on the rules of C's game and the degree of chemistry between B and their GM.</blockquote>

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