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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8991832" data-attributes="member: 82106">Well, 4e is a BIT of a transitional game, if you are going to 'play it trad' then basically you go to PHB1 P186 and follow the Perception rules. While Skills are described in purely PC-facing ways, NPCs DO have skill bonuses, so presumably they can do the same thing as a PC. Now we run into exactly the same problems that we do in RM or most other D&Ds. The 'Searching:' bullet discusses squares and either standard actions or minutes (presumably depending on whether this is the middle of a combat or not). The rules discuss opposed checks vs Stealth, but there's no real description of any other kind of situation, so you'd have to extrapolate some. OTOH if you play 4e in a more narrative way, or even if you didn't and the GM built an SC ahead of time (it is just a type of encounter) then you can simply follow its process. In an SC you use the DCs set by the SC, and the situation is adjudicated in a purely fiction-based way, there's no mention of squares and actions or minutes or whatever. The GM can certainly gauge the fictional viability of PC actions based on an evaluation drawn from the skill rules, but that's not explicitly required. The key thing is though, only PCs roll dice in SCs. So in this case, lets say that the Paynims are searching for them, an Arcana check, validated by the expenditure of a power, to make a convincing illusion seems like a pretty reasonable idea. If the Wizard succeeds against the medium DC for the SC's level (usually the same as that of the PCs) then the illusion works. Next perhaps the Ranger tosses a Stealth check to see if he brushed out any tracks well enough, etc. Perhaps an Endurance check is required to hold some of the shored up pit wall in place, a Dungeoneering check to see if it can be reinforced, etc. The actions of the Paynims may matter (perhaps the Wizard gets a check to see if he notices the Paynims are casting a ritual and to counter spell it) but the SC is fundamentally ABOUT the PCs, so its not necessary to be overly concerned about the NPCs or deploy mechanics to handle their behavior, it is just part of the fiction that is challenging the PCs. I mean, I'm not going to say that the 'trad way' of doing it in 4e is going to 'fail', but it requires the GM to make a whole bunch of decisions about what the NPCs do, what rules apply, what their exact skill bonuses are, etc. whereas this kind of stuff is much less important in an SC because it is built around story, not setting.</blockquote>

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