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Message: <blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7497199" data-attributes="member: 6919838">From PHB"Your Wisdom (Insight) check decides whether you can determine the true intentions of a creature, such as when searching out a lie or predicting someone’s next move. "From PHB"Your Charisma (Deception) check determines whether you can convincingly hide the truth, either verbally or through your actions. This deception can encompass everything from misleading others through ambiguity to telling outright lies. Typical situations include trying to fast-talk a guard, con a merchant, earn money through gambling, pass yourself off in a disguise, dull someone's suspicions with false assurances, or maintain a straight face while telling a blatant lie."Also from PHB"To make an ability check, roll a d20 and add the relevant ability modifier. As with other d20 rolls, apply bonuses and penalties, and compare the total to the DC. If the total equals or exceeds the DC, the ability check is a success — the creature overcomes the challenge at hand. Otherwise, it's a failure, which means the character or monster makes no progress toward the objective or makes progress combined with a setback determined by the DM."So sometimes folks take objection to various ways a Gm can answer a failed insight check vs deception to see if someone is truthing or not.So, i will rule out at the start the idea that the Gm tells the player "you believe him" or the opposite.What about "he seems to be telling the truth." "he seems to be lying"? or is it only the case that you can tell them if they see clearly he is lying?But more to the point what about this exchange:Player: i want to watch and see if my character can see that he is lying?" GM: If the answer is "he seems truthful" will your character believe him to be telling the truth?Player: no.GM: the no roll necessary - every result leads to same conclusion - your character doesn't believe he is telling the truth.I mean, does have to be a difference between failure and success for there to be a roll, right? any thoughts on the basic breakdown of this and more importantly what are the scopes of options you use in your games?</blockquote>

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