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General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
An Open Letter to Planewalker Regarding so-called Prestige Races
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<blockquote data-quote="Hardhead" data-source="post: 1394227" data-attributes="member: 2844"><p>I'm writing this because I've read the preview chapter for races on Planewalker.com (<a href="http://www.planewalker.com/index.php?secID=14&subID=15" target="_blank">http://www.planewalker.com/index.php?secID=14&subID=15</a>).</p><p></p><p>The idea for these were originally put forward in Dragon #304, in an article written by Brannon Hollingsworth, the maintainer of Planewalker.com.</p><p></p><p>The basic idea is that you can spend XP to gain an ability. For example:</p><p></p><p>Scavenging Creature</p><p>Cost: 3,500 XP</p><p>Minimum Level: 4th</p><p>Prerequisite: None</p><p>Unavailable to: None</p><p>Details: The eyes of the creature become oversized, dominating much of their face.</p><p>Game Effects: Gain darkvision to 60 feet. If the creature already possesses darkvision, its range is extended 30 feet. Also gain a +10 racial bonus to Search checks.</p><p></p><p>More powerful ones cost more XP.</p><p></p><p>You go to a "focus point" like the Spire, spend 3500 XP and presto, you gain Darkvission. Now, besides the fact that 3500 XP is probably too cheap for such a great ability (every character higher than 12th or 13th, to whom this amount is a pittiance, would should take it)[1]. It's just a bad system.</p><p></p><p>It was a bad idea in Oathbound. It's was a bad idea in Dragon. It's still a bad idea.</p><p></p><p>First, from a sementics perspective, it sounds like you're talking about a prestige class for races, which were introduced in Unearthed Arcana (and Arcana Unearthed). That's not <em>that</em> big a deal, though.</p><p></p><p>Mainly, it's the fact that it's similar to the Item Creation feats (you pay XP to get abilities), but you don't have to spend a feat for it, the item can never be taken away, and if the DM wants to come up with some of his own, he just has to guesetimate how much XP it should cost (which looks like what was done on a lot of the "prestige racial powers," hereafter PRPs, listed).</p><p></p><p>Secondly, there's no CR modifier, often because one individual power isn't enough to bump a CR up. But they form chains, with increasingly better powers. Theoretically, I could put them all on one creature, making him much more powerful, but there's no change in the CR.</p><p></p><p>Thirdly, paying XP for special abiliteis is dumb, when we already have many other mechanics for that in D&D: We have feats, for smaller powers, and levels for abilities that are too powerful to be feats (as part of Prestige classes and Level Adustements). The problem is, XP is a "renewalbe resource," since D&D has a cath-up mechanic for those that fall behind in XP. While if you spend a feat or a level, it's gone forever. Over the course of many adventures, this causes the ability you gained from spending XP to essentially vanish in the D&D catch-up mechanic (when Oathbound was released in 3.0, this wasn't as true, but the 3.5 edition should be taken into account here). This is also a problem with magical item creation, but since they also require you to spend both feat and gold, it's not as big of a deal. With no gold to spend and no feat lost in aquiring PRPs, the problem is magnified.</p><p></p><p>Lastly, it's not Planescape. These "focus points" did not exist in 2e. You didn't go to a spot, spend xp, and get new abilities. You <em>did</em> get abilites from your belief and philosophy, but that's different. If they were tied to factions, I might be more forgiving, but they aren't. In this way, they undermine the flavor of Planescape. It's one thing to convert things from 2e to 3e (and, you've done a generally good job of that). It's another thing to introduce entirely new core concepts to the settting.</p><p></p><p>In summary, it wasn't a great mechanic to start with. It was made worse by 3.5, and there are better "pay" mechanics in 3.5 in the form of feats and levels. I know several people on the Planewalker staff like the mechanic, since they had hands in creating it. But keep it where it belongs. It's not Planescape-flavored. I don't want your Oathbound in my Planescape. If you like them so much, put them in a supplement or something. Don't try and change the core setting so much.</p><p></p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px">1. As a magical item, it would be 40,000 gp magical item, just for the search bonus (bonus squared x 10 then doubled for being a nonstnadard type of bonus then doubled again for not taking up a magical item slot. Oh, and it can't be taken away. Now, add in Goggles of the Night (12,000) plus they don't take up a slot (double them to 24,000) and you've got a 64,000 gold magical item. A caster that had spent a feat and was paying 32,000 gold would still have to spend 2560 XP to make this item... yet everyone gets to make a version of it that can't be stolen, for no gold, with no feat, for just 1,000 xp more???</span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hardhead, post: 1394227, member: 2844"] I'm writing this because I've read the preview chapter for races on Planewalker.com ([url]http://www.planewalker.com/index.php?secID=14&subID=15[/url]). The idea for these were originally put forward in Dragon #304, in an article written by Brannon Hollingsworth, the maintainer of Planewalker.com. The basic idea is that you can spend XP to gain an ability. For example: Scavenging Creature Cost: 3,500 XP Minimum Level: 4th Prerequisite: None Unavailable to: None Details: The eyes of the creature become oversized, dominating much of their face. Game Effects: Gain darkvision to 60 feet. If the creature already possesses darkvision, its range is extended 30 feet. Also gain a +10 racial bonus to Search checks. More powerful ones cost more XP. You go to a "focus point" like the Spire, spend 3500 XP and presto, you gain Darkvission. Now, besides the fact that 3500 XP is probably too cheap for such a great ability (every character higher than 12th or 13th, to whom this amount is a pittiance, would should take it)[1]. It's just a bad system. It was a bad idea in Oathbound. It's was a bad idea in Dragon. It's still a bad idea. First, from a sementics perspective, it sounds like you're talking about a prestige class for races, which were introduced in Unearthed Arcana (and Arcana Unearthed). That's not [i]that[/i] big a deal, though. Mainly, it's the fact that it's similar to the Item Creation feats (you pay XP to get abilities), but you don't have to spend a feat for it, the item can never be taken away, and if the DM wants to come up with some of his own, he just has to guesetimate how much XP it should cost (which looks like what was done on a lot of the "prestige racial powers," hereafter PRPs, listed). Secondly, there's no CR modifier, often because one individual power isn't enough to bump a CR up. But they form chains, with increasingly better powers. Theoretically, I could put them all on one creature, making him much more powerful, but there's no change in the CR. Thirdly, paying XP for special abiliteis is dumb, when we already have many other mechanics for that in D&D: We have feats, for smaller powers, and levels for abilities that are too powerful to be feats (as part of Prestige classes and Level Adustements). The problem is, XP is a "renewalbe resource," since D&D has a cath-up mechanic for those that fall behind in XP. While if you spend a feat or a level, it's gone forever. Over the course of many adventures, this causes the ability you gained from spending XP to essentially vanish in the D&D catch-up mechanic (when Oathbound was released in 3.0, this wasn't as true, but the 3.5 edition should be taken into account here). This is also a problem with magical item creation, but since they also require you to spend both feat and gold, it's not as big of a deal. With no gold to spend and no feat lost in aquiring PRPs, the problem is magnified. Lastly, it's not Planescape. These "focus points" did not exist in 2e. You didn't go to a spot, spend xp, and get new abilities. You [i]did[/i] get abilites from your belief and philosophy, but that's different. If they were tied to factions, I might be more forgiving, but they aren't. In this way, they undermine the flavor of Planescape. It's one thing to convert things from 2e to 3e (and, you've done a generally good job of that). It's another thing to introduce entirely new core concepts to the settting. In summary, it wasn't a great mechanic to start with. It was made worse by 3.5, and there are better "pay" mechanics in 3.5 in the form of feats and levels. I know several people on the Planewalker staff like the mechanic, since they had hands in creating it. But keep it where it belongs. It's not Planescape-flavored. I don't want your Oathbound in my Planescape. If you like them so much, put them in a supplement or something. Don't try and change the core setting so much. [SIZE=1]1. As a magical item, it would be 40,000 gp magical item, just for the search bonus (bonus squared x 10 then doubled for being a nonstnadard type of bonus then doubled again for not taking up a magical item slot. Oh, and it can't be taken away. Now, add in Goggles of the Night (12,000) plus they don't take up a slot (double them to 24,000) and you've got a 64,000 gold magical item. A caster that had spent a feat and was paying 32,000 gold would still have to spend 2560 XP to make this item... yet everyone gets to make a version of it that can't be stolen, for no gold, with no feat, for just 1,000 xp more???[/SIZE] [/QUOTE]
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