Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Analyzing 5E: Overpowered by design
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 6539593" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>To be fair, when you use a word like "overpowered" to mean something precisely the opposite of what it actually means, you should expect some confusion. I'm far from the only person who thought you were complaining that 5e made everything "broken," even if you never used that actual word. Since you never clarified that you <em>like</em> these things, approve of them, think it twas a step in the right direction etc., I'm fairly sure the problem lies in not clearly communicating your message. "Overpowered" has an inherently negative connotation; if you want to use it in a positive way, you have to be more clear.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And this is what I mean: "When I said 'overpowered by design,' I meant 'design makes what would be overpowered <em>not</em> overpowered.' " But you didn't actually <em>say</em> the latter, you left it up to implication. When we add that to your specifically-stated original intention of bringing these options down to a lower power level, is it any wonder that I completely missed the point?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't <em>assume</em> feats are available because certain 5e advocates (elsewhere) have <em>drilled</em> it into my head that FEATS ARE OPTIONAL, and that expecting them would make me an "entitled" player. That said, even with Warcaster <em>and</em> Resilient: Con, I've seen the numbers for what "half of damage taken" looks like, on average, as you gain levels. Without at least one of of those feats, you'll be facing probabilities of 35% or less by CR5, and even with both of them and a good Con score (+4) at (say) level 10 (so best of 2d20+8 vs. the DC), you'll be at 36% or less by CR8ish (definitely CR9). Even at the highest bonuses (max Con and Prof with Adv) a CR9 creature, in the generic, does enough average damage to give you a 43.75% chance to save. Monsters beyond (say) CR12 become borderline impossible to save against, and I'd expect the highest-CR enemies with even a modicum of intelligence to smack the lady/gent in the bathrobe if they foolishly get close enough to be hit (and, note, ranged attacks work just fine--they even make an example out of "an arrow and a dragon's breath"). Should you get critically hit, vs. CR5 or higher (very roughly) you can basically say goodbye to whatever you're Concentrating on.</p><p></p><p>(Note: These numbers are based on monsters available prior to the DMG coming out, so things may have changed somewhat. I'm relying on SurfArcher's <a href="http://surfarcher.blogspot.com/2014/09/d-5e-monsters-part-7-construction-damage.html#Damage" target="_blank">very thorough</a> analyses for this stuff.)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Pardon. I keep forgetting that that changed either in the late playtest or final beta. I still think my point remains: slots of levels (roughly) 3-5 remain <em>extremely</em> important for day-to-day functioning, even for players who use (or, IMO, abuse) their spells as calculatingly as possible.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Out of curiosity: does the slot remain spent while the Simulacrum is up? I would expect it to, as a balancing mechanic (what with it generating an entire additional party member, albeit at half HP) but it isn't mentioned. Planar Binding is something to watch out for, I agree. That said though, summoning additional allies has always been a way for spellcasters to break the game over their knees and cackle maniacally as they do so. It's not quite the Aggressively Hegemonizing Ursine Swarm of 3e, but sure, these sound big. Maybe even <em>actually</em> overpowered--I'd need to test my intuitions before asserting so, however. It definitely seems like the kind of spell that leans (IMO excessively) on DMs being dicks to players who try for too much, which is a DMing tactic I despise, but again I'd need to investigate.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What does that even <em>mean?</em> How does one "spoil" players, if they still face challenges appropriate to the tools they've been given and have meaningful chances of failure?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 6539593, member: 6790260"] To be fair, when you use a word like "overpowered" to mean something precisely the opposite of what it actually means, you should expect some confusion. I'm far from the only person who thought you were complaining that 5e made everything "broken," even if you never used that actual word. Since you never clarified that you [I]like[/I] these things, approve of them, think it twas a step in the right direction etc., I'm fairly sure the problem lies in not clearly communicating your message. "Overpowered" has an inherently negative connotation; if you want to use it in a positive way, you have to be more clear. And this is what I mean: "When I said 'overpowered by design,' I meant 'design makes what would be overpowered [I]not[/I] overpowered.' " But you didn't actually [I]say[/I] the latter, you left it up to implication. When we add that to your specifically-stated original intention of bringing these options down to a lower power level, is it any wonder that I completely missed the point? I don't [I]assume[/I] feats are available because certain 5e advocates (elsewhere) have [I]drilled[/I] it into my head that FEATS ARE OPTIONAL, and that expecting them would make me an "entitled" player. That said, even with Warcaster [I]and[/I] Resilient: Con, I've seen the numbers for what "half of damage taken" looks like, on average, as you gain levels. Without at least one of of those feats, you'll be facing probabilities of 35% or less by CR5, and even with both of them and a good Con score (+4) at (say) level 10 (so best of 2d20+8 vs. the DC), you'll be at 36% or less by CR8ish (definitely CR9). Even at the highest bonuses (max Con and Prof with Adv) a CR9 creature, in the generic, does enough average damage to give you a 43.75% chance to save. Monsters beyond (say) CR12 become borderline impossible to save against, and I'd expect the highest-CR enemies with even a modicum of intelligence to smack the lady/gent in the bathrobe if they foolishly get close enough to be hit (and, note, ranged attacks work just fine--they even make an example out of "an arrow and a dragon's breath"). Should you get critically hit, vs. CR5 or higher (very roughly) you can basically say goodbye to whatever you're Concentrating on. (Note: These numbers are based on monsters available prior to the DMG coming out, so things may have changed somewhat. I'm relying on SurfArcher's [URL="http://surfarcher.blogspot.com/2014/09/d-5e-monsters-part-7-construction-damage.html#Damage"]very thorough[/URL] analyses for this stuff.) Pardon. I keep forgetting that that changed either in the late playtest or final beta. I still think my point remains: slots of levels (roughly) 3-5 remain [I]extremely[/I] important for day-to-day functioning, even for players who use (or, IMO, abuse) their spells as calculatingly as possible. Out of curiosity: does the slot remain spent while the Simulacrum is up? I would expect it to, as a balancing mechanic (what with it generating an entire additional party member, albeit at half HP) but it isn't mentioned. Planar Binding is something to watch out for, I agree. That said though, summoning additional allies has always been a way for spellcasters to break the game over their knees and cackle maniacally as they do so. It's not quite the Aggressively Hegemonizing Ursine Swarm of 3e, but sure, these sound big. Maybe even [I]actually[/I] overpowered--I'd need to test my intuitions before asserting so, however. It definitely seems like the kind of spell that leans (IMO excessively) on DMs being dicks to players who try for too much, which is a DMing tactic I despise, but again I'd need to investigate. What does that even [I]mean?[/I] How does one "spoil" players, if they still face challenges appropriate to the tools they've been given and have meaningful chances of failure? [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Analyzing 5E: Overpowered by design
Top