Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Analyzing 5E: Overpowered by design
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="FormerlyHemlock" data-source="post: 6541440" data-attributes="member: 6787650"><p>I guess that's the difference between our playstyles then: I don't see "turning gold into power" (Simulacrum, Planar Binding, Animate Dead, enchanting items) as an <em>abuse</em> of wizardly power (except maybe in a moral sense, depending on what you do with it <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />). I see it as very close to the core of wizardly power: foresight, artifice, and preparation are what wizards are <em>about</em>. The cantrips and fireballs and other evocations are just thinks the wizard does to pass the time until he can level up and learn real magic, but if you have an evil wizard in control of a kingdom, you can absolutely expect him to have dozens or hundreds of fiends at his command in addition to his own personal spellcasting, and Planar Binding (etc.) are how he does it. I'm influenced by fiction such as Jim Butcher's <em>Dresden Files</em> and Fred Saberhagen's <em>Dracula</em> books (in particular the one with Merlin in it, <em>Dominion</em>).</p><p></p><p>Essentially, I see wizards as straddling the intermediate line between warfare-as-individual-personal-prowess (default D&D/Fighter paradigm, limited by your own personal HP) and technology-driven industrial warfare (limited by the raw materials you have to make bombs/tanks/bullets). Unlike technological warfare, wizards don't get to scale out by building factories to make factories to make factories (personal spellcasting ability is a bottleneck), and also unlike technology they also have some intrinsic power independent of any logistic pipeline (can throw Fireballs using only spell slots, unlike an ultratech general), but they're about halfway there.</p><p></p><p>RE: Banishment, it doesn't actually break a Planar Binding (so you could just re-summon the Goristro and it would still be bound). Also it works almost just as well on Prime Material creatures (especially wizards, who have terrible Cha saves) so I'm a bit surprised that the enemy spellcasters aren't indiscriminately Banishing PCs as well as fiends, but in any case it still takes ten Banish spells to banish 10,000 gp worth of air elementals, and the elementals (and PCs) can inflict a lot of damage while those Banish spells are being cast. Planar Binding just one elemental is kind of pointless though, like bringing along a pistol with only one bullet in it: why wouldn't you load at least six bullets?</p><p></p><p>Did I mention yet that none of my PCs are at a level where this would matter for them yet, and that the first 5E wizard in my campaign to (ab)use Planar Binding will probably be an NPC villain? Your Underdark campaign is your own, but if there are wealthy and powerful enemy spellcasters everywhere in your campaign, I personally would be less frightened of Banishment spells cast in person by NPC villains, and more concerned about the possibility that <em>at any time</em> someone could scry me out and then open up a Transport Via Plants in my vicinity and drop forty Air Elementals on my head with orders to kill me[1]. Sure, it costs 40,000 gold pieces to arrange the hit, but we said "wealthy and powerful" enemies, right? Banishment isn't going to help me survive that unless I manage to Banish myself. ;-)</p><p></p><p>[1] Alternatively, the enemy could travel to another plane and then Gate me into his presence where all the elementals/demons/whatnot are already waiting.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="FormerlyHemlock, post: 6541440, member: 6787650"] I guess that's the difference between our playstyles then: I don't see "turning gold into power" (Simulacrum, Planar Binding, Animate Dead, enchanting items) as an [I]abuse[/I] of wizardly power (except maybe in a moral sense, depending on what you do with it :)). I see it as very close to the core of wizardly power: foresight, artifice, and preparation are what wizards are [I]about[/I]. The cantrips and fireballs and other evocations are just thinks the wizard does to pass the time until he can level up and learn real magic, but if you have an evil wizard in control of a kingdom, you can absolutely expect him to have dozens or hundreds of fiends at his command in addition to his own personal spellcasting, and Planar Binding (etc.) are how he does it. I'm influenced by fiction such as Jim Butcher's [I]Dresden Files[/I] and Fred Saberhagen's [I]Dracula[/I] books (in particular the one with Merlin in it, [I]Dominion[/I]). Essentially, I see wizards as straddling the intermediate line between warfare-as-individual-personal-prowess (default D&D/Fighter paradigm, limited by your own personal HP) and technology-driven industrial warfare (limited by the raw materials you have to make bombs/tanks/bullets). Unlike technological warfare, wizards don't get to scale out by building factories to make factories to make factories (personal spellcasting ability is a bottleneck), and also unlike technology they also have some intrinsic power independent of any logistic pipeline (can throw Fireballs using only spell slots, unlike an ultratech general), but they're about halfway there. RE: Banishment, it doesn't actually break a Planar Binding (so you could just re-summon the Goristro and it would still be bound). Also it works almost just as well on Prime Material creatures (especially wizards, who have terrible Cha saves) so I'm a bit surprised that the enemy spellcasters aren't indiscriminately Banishing PCs as well as fiends, but in any case it still takes ten Banish spells to banish 10,000 gp worth of air elementals, and the elementals (and PCs) can inflict a lot of damage while those Banish spells are being cast. Planar Binding just one elemental is kind of pointless though, like bringing along a pistol with only one bullet in it: why wouldn't you load at least six bullets? Did I mention yet that none of my PCs are at a level where this would matter for them yet, and that the first 5E wizard in my campaign to (ab)use Planar Binding will probably be an NPC villain? Your Underdark campaign is your own, but if there are wealthy and powerful enemy spellcasters everywhere in your campaign, I personally would be less frightened of Banishment spells cast in person by NPC villains, and more concerned about the possibility that [I]at any time[/I] someone could scry me out and then open up a Transport Via Plants in my vicinity and drop forty Air Elementals on my head with orders to kill me[1]. Sure, it costs 40,000 gold pieces to arrange the hit, but we said "wealthy and powerful" enemies, right? Banishment isn't going to help me survive that unless I manage to Banish myself. ;-) [1] Alternatively, the enemy could travel to another plane and then Gate me into his presence where all the elementals/demons/whatnot are already waiting. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Analyzing 5E: Overpowered by design
Top