Reply to thread

Message

<blockquote data-quote="Ovarwa" data-source="post: 7112328" data-attributes="member: 75153"><p>Hi,&nbsp;&nbsp; Um, that is a comment.&nbsp; You're calling me silly.&nbsp; That's fine, I can take it.&nbsp; It isn't an objection at all.&nbsp; Based on the thread title, noting a rather uncommon but not vanishingly rare circumstance seems reasonable.&nbsp; But of course, that isn't the only circumstance I mention, which you do notice:&nbsp; I don't know what you are doing with this.&nbsp; The comparison that matters is between casting Bless and doing something else.&nbsp; What matters is the benefit compared to some other action.&nbsp; But the point itself is also not correct:&nbsp; A Cleric casting Bless using a 1st level slot on a party with 50 people (large number used to illustrate the situation) will increase the party's damage by a much smaller percentage than on a party with 6, 3 of whom are strong attackers.&nbsp; Nevertheless, if the intention is to use Bless offensively, the chance of *having* sufficient strong attackers and even optimized attackers increases with party size.&nbsp; BTW, the canonical 4-character party C/F/R/W has only two good targets for offensive applications.&nbsp; I have a hard time figuring out when you're arguing or agreeing.&nbsp; It also seems that you started off upset and contentious.&nbsp; Like this:&nbsp; Yes.&nbsp; That's what I enjoy.&nbsp; Got it in one.&nbsp; We do.&nbsp; I'm not sure how you thought I missed the point.&nbsp; Hmm.&nbsp; There's a great conversation in here, and if we can stop agreeing with each other so violently, maybe we can have it!&nbsp; My idea of OP is something that makes all other alternatives silly.&nbsp; To the extent that good alternatives can be found, a feature isn't overpowered.&nbsp; Is GWM/PAM overpowered?&nbsp; It is certainly good!&nbsp; But the extra protection of sword-n-board is also really good, especially if the GM uses the DMG charts for generating treasure.&nbsp; (Hard to get great armor, but not hard to upgrade shields.)&nbsp; There are feats for shields too.&nbsp; Or, a Fighter might prefer Sharpshooting from range.&nbsp; And there's something to be said for a well-built assassin using none of these feats, especially with some strategic multi-class.&nbsp; And some folks thing casters rule.&nbsp; So it's obvious for a Hulk Smash fighter, but that's not the only good choice.&nbsp; I'm also ok with a class having a powerful signature ability, and I think it's great if that kicks in early, to better define the class.&nbsp; Bless is a likely signature ability for the classic support class!&nbsp; It is very good, even excellent, available 2/day at level 1, yet a cleric will often need to cast something else.&nbsp; I think that's fine.&nbsp; Bless isn't the only first level spell that is often the perfect action even for high level characters.&nbsp; Shield comes to mind.&nbsp; And there are Warlock guides out there that suggest Misty Step is often worth a 5th level slot!&nbsp; I think the thread began with the suggestion that Bless wasn't really all that great.&nbsp; Have we come full circle?&nbsp; You don't understand me correctly. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> I'm saying that Bless is sometimes a better casting than SG, and (now I'm suggesting that) this is ok.&nbsp; Well, you're making assumptions about my stance and are missing what I'm saying.&nbsp; I list those situations to show that those other spells are often much better than Bless, which itself often very good.&nbsp; Bless does not overshadow SG or Revivify.&nbsp; (I suspect a cleric will want to hold a 3rd level slot open for the latter, just in case, rather than upcast Bless.&nbsp; Having a Revivify in reserve makes other characters more comfortable to go all out... it's a damage enhancer even when left uncast!)&nbsp; As for Bless being situationally better than Revivify, of course it is:&nbsp; What if I don't have a 3rd level slot? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />&nbsp; What if I want to enhance people's saves against a threat?&nbsp; What if I want to increase damage?&nbsp; And better than SG too:&nbsp; How good is SG when enemy archers are keeping their distance?&nbsp; As for &quot;you didn't show that bless was not situationally better than them,&quot; of course I didn't.&nbsp; Sometimes Bless *is* situationally better.&nbsp;&nbsp; Maybe I shouldn't be so quick to respond to your posts?&nbsp; Anyway,&nbsp; Ken</p></blockquote><p></p>

[QUOTE="Ovarwa, post: 7112328, member: 75153"] Hi, Um, that is a comment. You're calling me silly. That's fine, I can take it. It isn't an objection at all. Based on the thread title, noting a rather uncommon but not vanishingly rare circumstance seems reasonable. But of course, that isn't the only circumstance I mention, which you do notice: I don't know what you are doing with this. The comparison that matters is between casting Bless and doing something else. What matters is the benefit compared to some other action. But the point itself is also not correct: A Cleric casting Bless using a 1st level slot on a party with 50 people (large number used to illustrate the situation) will increase the party's damage by a much smaller percentage than on a party with 6, 3 of whom are strong attackers. Nevertheless, if the intention is to use Bless offensively, the chance of *having* sufficient strong attackers and even optimized attackers increases with party size. BTW, the canonical 4-character party C/F/R/W has only two good targets for offensive applications. I have a hard time figuring out when you're arguing or agreeing. It also seems that you started off upset and contentious. Like this: Yes. That's what I enjoy. Got it in one. We do. I'm not sure how you thought I missed the point. Hmm. There's a great conversation in here, and if we can stop agreeing with each other so violently, maybe we can have it! My idea of OP is something that makes all other alternatives silly. To the extent that good alternatives can be found, a feature isn't overpowered. Is GWM/PAM overpowered? It is certainly good! But the extra protection of sword-n-board is also really good, especially if the GM uses the DMG charts for generating treasure. (Hard to get great armor, but not hard to upgrade shields.) There are feats for shields too. Or, a Fighter might prefer Sharpshooting from range. And there's something to be said for a well-built assassin using none of these feats, especially with some strategic multi-class. And some folks thing casters rule. So it's obvious for a Hulk Smash fighter, but that's not the only good choice. I'm also ok with a class having a powerful signature ability, and I think it's great if that kicks in early, to better define the class. Bless is a likely signature ability for the classic support class! It is very good, even excellent, available 2/day at level 1, yet a cleric will often need to cast something else. I think that's fine. Bless isn't the only first level spell that is often the perfect action even for high level characters. Shield comes to mind. And there are Warlock guides out there that suggest Misty Step is often worth a 5th level slot! I think the thread began with the suggestion that Bless wasn't really all that great. Have we come full circle? You don't understand me correctly. :) I'm saying that Bless is sometimes a better casting than SG, and (now I'm suggesting that) this is ok. Well, you're making assumptions about my stance and are missing what I'm saying. I list those situations to show that those other spells are often much better than Bless, which itself often very good. Bless does not overshadow SG or Revivify. (I suspect a cleric will want to hold a 3rd level slot open for the latter, just in case, rather than upcast Bless. Having a Revivify in reserve makes other characters more comfortable to go all out... it's a damage enhancer even when left uncast!) As for Bless being situationally better than Revivify, of course it is: What if I don't have a 3rd level slot? :) What if I want to enhance people's saves against a threat? What if I want to increase damage? And better than SG too: How good is SG when enemy archers are keeping their distance? As for "you didn't show that bless was not situationally better than them," of course I didn't. Sometimes Bless *is* situationally better. Maybe I shouldn't be so quick to respond to your posts? Anyway, Ken [/QUOTE]

Verification