Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Andy Collins: "Most Magic Items in D&D Are Awful"
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 3395196" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>Oh. That. Well, there really nothing to be done about that. It's a feature of every system that it begins to break down as bonuses near its numerical range. GURPS begins to break down as bonuses approach 15. D% systems break down when bonuses get near 100. D20 will always break down as bonuses get near 20. Dice poll systems begin to break down when the average exceeds the most difficult of challenges. The problem is that a system like this depends on its random factor, and eventually as the bonuses get large the random factor is dwarfed by the bonus. The system becomes non-random. It becomes deterministic.</p><p></p><p>In the example you site, a Wizard could already have a +25 bonus or so if they worked on it. But what would be the point? As the bonuses get large, pure specialization becomes more and more attractive. Why bother being good at something you don't do when you can be so overwhelming at something that you do do? Why rely on something you could randomly fail at, when you could succeed at something almost every time? </p><p></p><p>And the thing is, its an absolute you are fighting here. There isn't a tweak to the system you can do. Oh, you could change the size of the dice, but the problem would just show up elsewhere then. The gap is problimatic, but there isn't a darn thing to be done about it.</p><p></p><p>And really, this problem isn't just confined to the game. The dice are what limit games at a mechanical level, but there is a real world issue that this corresponds to. Suppose you take two ordinary youths. They play chess and ping pong together. They have different dispositions and skills and so one is slightly better than the other in one game or another, but because they've both just picked up both games, the contests are interesting. One wins most of the time at chess, but occassionally picks up a game through a bit of luck. The other wins most of the time at ping pong, but its still a close contest and the outcome isn't gauranteed. But what happens when the two players begin to hone thier natural talents? A problem, that's what. Soon the contest is no longer interesting. One youth plays ping pong all the time. The other is devoted to chess. In a very short amount of time, the two players are no longer adequate contests for the other. The outcome becomes predictable. The match becomes one sided. It becomes boring. And what's worse, neither player is a good match for the sort of challenges that is a strong challenge for the other. This one can't play ping pong against the rivals of the other. The ping pong player can't play chess with the international masters that the chess player faces.</p><p></p><p>Lastly, this isn't a new issue with the D20 system. It's always been a part of D&D. In a prior edition I had a thief with a -4 AC. Even with a magic weapon, I could barely a hit -4 AC. But the fighter in the party with a -4 AC could barely miss a -4 AC. If anything, the problem has gotten to be alot less of a problem than it was because at least now it isn't just fighters that get multiple attacks. </p><p></p><p>There isn't alot to be done about it unless you are willing to assume universal competance in everything on the part of all players, and that has its own problems.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 3395196, member: 4937"] Oh. That. Well, there really nothing to be done about that. It's a feature of every system that it begins to break down as bonuses near its numerical range. GURPS begins to break down as bonuses approach 15. D% systems break down when bonuses get near 100. D20 will always break down as bonuses get near 20. Dice poll systems begin to break down when the average exceeds the most difficult of challenges. The problem is that a system like this depends on its random factor, and eventually as the bonuses get large the random factor is dwarfed by the bonus. The system becomes non-random. It becomes deterministic. In the example you site, a Wizard could already have a +25 bonus or so if they worked on it. But what would be the point? As the bonuses get large, pure specialization becomes more and more attractive. Why bother being good at something you don't do when you can be so overwhelming at something that you do do? Why rely on something you could randomly fail at, when you could succeed at something almost every time? And the thing is, its an absolute you are fighting here. There isn't a tweak to the system you can do. Oh, you could change the size of the dice, but the problem would just show up elsewhere then. The gap is problimatic, but there isn't a darn thing to be done about it. And really, this problem isn't just confined to the game. The dice are what limit games at a mechanical level, but there is a real world issue that this corresponds to. Suppose you take two ordinary youths. They play chess and ping pong together. They have different dispositions and skills and so one is slightly better than the other in one game or another, but because they've both just picked up both games, the contests are interesting. One wins most of the time at chess, but occassionally picks up a game through a bit of luck. The other wins most of the time at ping pong, but its still a close contest and the outcome isn't gauranteed. But what happens when the two players begin to hone thier natural talents? A problem, that's what. Soon the contest is no longer interesting. One youth plays ping pong all the time. The other is devoted to chess. In a very short amount of time, the two players are no longer adequate contests for the other. The outcome becomes predictable. The match becomes one sided. It becomes boring. And what's worse, neither player is a good match for the sort of challenges that is a strong challenge for the other. This one can't play ping pong against the rivals of the other. The ping pong player can't play chess with the international masters that the chess player faces. Lastly, this isn't a new issue with the D20 system. It's always been a part of D&D. In a prior edition I had a thief with a -4 AC. Even with a magic weapon, I could barely a hit -4 AC. But the fighter in the party with a -4 AC could barely miss a -4 AC. If anything, the problem has gotten to be alot less of a problem than it was because at least now it isn't just fighters that get multiple attacks. There isn't alot to be done about it unless you are willing to assume universal competance in everything on the part of all players, and that has its own problems. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Andy Collins: "Most Magic Items in D&D Are Awful"
Top