animate dead on a barbed devil

[evilbob]

Situation: using animate dead on a barbed devil to turn it into a skeleton.

Main question: would a the skeleton to keep the barbed defense special quality?

Secondary question: would it keep fire immunity? The adult red dragon skeleton example in the MM does, but this may be related to the creature's subtype. If it does keep fire immunity, would it also keep acid resistance 10? (Cold resistance 10 being subsumed by the given cold immunity.)

To me, the barbed defense special quality is a function of a physical quality of the creature that would still exist if it were a skeleton; i.e. I think the barbs are made of bone, or that it could be argued that they were. It doesn't necessarily fall into the "extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks" condition listed in the skeleton's description, but it does seem to be a quality of the creature, similar to spiked armor (although spiked armor only functions on a grapple - but then again, they are presumably not as big). On the other hand, the barbed defense special quality is also listed as a supernatural ability, leading to the conclusion that it is only the supernatural nature of the barbs that allow them to do damage. Which way would you rule?

Along those same lines, since immunity to fire is kept but not specifically detailed, are other resistances or immunities? Or is it only kept due to the subtype example?

All this is also assuming that all other special attacks and qualities are lost, including impale.

 

[FEADIN]

He keeps only Impoved grab and Impale because they are extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks.

 

[evilbob]

Actually neither of those are special qualities, they are both special attacks. I'm pretty sure the skeleton loses both of those abilities. For example, an owlbear also has improved grab but an owlbear skeleton (given as an example) does not.

Your point about the language including the word "extraordinary" is good, though: I think since the barbs are supernatural they are excluded.

 

[FEADIN]

Actually neither of those are special qualities, they are both special attacks. I'm pretty sure the skeleton loses both of those abilities. For example, an owlbear also has improved grab but an owlbear skeleton (given as an example) does not.

Your point about the language including the word "extraordinary" is good, though: I think since the barbs are supernatural they are excluded.

You're right I made a critical fumble between two lines
They lose everything that is not an Extraordinary special quality.

 

[Dragonwriter]

Firstly, this isn't possible. Devils dissolve in ten minutes and take any part of them back to the Nine Hells where they remain there for 99 years (Thank you FC2). Animate Dead (CL 6 min. in this case) has a casting time of 1 standard action, but their system would be yanked back to their homeplane. If you want a 12HD skeleton following you for ten minutes, this is worth it.

So for the ten minutes of use, the barbed devil would have no subtypes (there goes immunities and resistances), no special attacks (goodbye fear, imp. grab, impale, and summon) and would lose most of it's special qualities (goodbye barbed defense, DR 10/good, see in darkness, SR, SLAs, and telepathy). It would only gain DR 5/bludg. and Immune to cold + undead immunities.
Changed stats would end up like this:

Hamatula Skeleton CR 6
NE Medium Undead
12d12 (78 hp)
Init: +11
AC 19 (+7 Dex, +2 natural)
BAB= +6
Attacks 2 claws melee +13 (2d8+6)
SA: none
SQ: Darkvision 60 ft., Immune to cold, DR 5/bludgeoning, undead traits
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +11, Will +8
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 25, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1
Skills: Nothing
Feats: Improved Initiative

 

[moritheil]

Firstly, this isn't possible. Devils dissolve in ten minutes and take any part of them back to the Nine Hells where they remain there for 99 years (Thank you FC2). Animate Dead (CL 6 min. in this case) has a casting time of 1 standard action, but their system would be yanked back to their homeplane. If you want a 12HD skeleton following you for ten minutes, this is worth it.

Doesn't killing them in their home plane get you a nondissolving corpse? I realize that's not practical for most, but unless you're going to demonstrate that the OP's question is never a concern, it's still worth answering.

 

[evilbob]

Firstly, this isn't possible. Devils dissolve in ten minutes and take any part of them back to the Nine Hells where they remain there for 99 years (Thank you FC2).

First, something from outside the MM / SRD seems less relevant to the topic. Second, I think it is debatable (although I'd prefer not in this thread) that once something is turned into a skeleton, its type has changed and therefore it is not subject to any kind of special rules related to devils. Third, as moritheil already said, it doesn't appear infallible, so again: it seems less germane.

That said, I believe the related stat block is done very well: I got the same thing when I was going through it, and I believe this thread has already shown that by the RAW, the barbed devil retains none of its special attacks or qualities - including both barbed defense and fire immunity.

Although it still isn't a very bad skeleton. It still has decent HD and HP, higher-than-normal claw base damage, and extremely high dex for a skeleton. And it seems reasonable that some sort of house rule could be cobbled together by a sympathetic GM that would make its barbs at least work like armor spikes or something to that effect - although given its powerful natural attacks, I can't imagine a situation where that would be useful...