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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 8104107" data-attributes="member: 12731">Note: since the forum upgrade, the &quot;ridonkulous bonus&quot; mentioned upthread had its link vanish. I expect there will be many broken/disappeared links where the poster provided a text for the link. But let's revisit the actual argument. First, here's the link:[URL unfurl=&quot;true&quot;]https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Pass%20without%20Trace[/URL]The intended takeaway was and is: If you design a ruleset and want to encourage stealth, you need to enable the entire group. You can do that in various ways. For example, by having an ability that lets the point man to roll for the entire group. A single roll for all four heroes. Or you can provide a really large bonus, like how 5th Edition gives out +10. That's the linked &quot;ridonkulous bonus&quot;.The context is that Pathfinder 2 would never give you anything more than a +2, tops. And what &quot;follow the leader&quot; actually does provide, is to let you apply your level to proficiency plus half the leader's proficiency level bonus. That is easily not enough - the statistical probability of at least one character still failing remains far too high.By &quot;far too high&quot; I specifically mean that the alternative, that not everybody is included in the stealth mission, becomes a far better option, mathematically speaking. And that is bad for a group game.To repeat myself, follow the leader remains useful in cases where failure is personal, but not in cases where one failure defines the outcome for the entire group.Tl;dr: 5E gets it, PF2 don't</blockquote>

[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 8104107, member: 12731"] Note: since the forum upgrade, the "ridonkulous bonus" mentioned upthread had its link vanish. I expect there will be many broken/disappeared links where the poster provided a text for the link. But let's revisit the actual argument. First, here's the link: [URL unfurl="true"]https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Pass%20without%20Trace[/URL] The intended takeaway was and is: If you design a ruleset and want to encourage stealth, you need to enable the entire group. You can do that in various ways. For example, by having an ability that lets the point man to roll for the entire group. A single roll for all four heroes. Or you can provide a really large bonus, like how 5th Edition gives out +10. That's the linked "ridonkulous bonus". The context is that Pathfinder 2 would never give you anything more than a +2, tops. And what "follow the leader" actually does provide, is to let you apply your level to proficiency plus half the leader's proficiency level bonus. That is easily not enough - the statistical probability of at least one character still failing remains far too high. By "far too high" I specifically mean that the alternative, that not everybody is included in the stealth mission, becomes a far better option, mathematically speaking. And that is bad for a group game. To repeat myself, follow the leader remains useful in cases where failure is personal, but not in cases where one failure defines the outcome for the entire group. Tl;dr: 5E gets it, PF2 don't [/QUOTE]

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