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<blockquote data-quote="nevin" data-source="post: 8106465" data-attributes="member: 7024481">ZappI think this is what led to pathfinder 2e.&nbsp; The pathfinder society games play much better with that dirty nitty gritty do it right or die environment.&nbsp; When you have to standardize everything to make it fair then you have to limit the roleplaying the DM can allow and then the tactical becomes the entire game.&nbsp; I don't know how many Con tournaments you've ever played in but that's why I gave them up.&nbsp; They weren't roleplaying games they were so limited that it was just a test to see if you could figure out the&nbsp; Puzzles.&nbsp; People that play that way get very confused when you try to explain to them that Role Playing&nbsp; games work better when you have a game master who can fudge, change or adjust any encounter on the fly.&nbsp; That was why they got invented. The Idea of someone adjusting the game to the players instead of just making the players suffer for doing it &quot;Wrong&quot;&nbsp; is confusing to them.&nbsp;&nbsp; For that kind of player &quot;SKILL&quot; in understanding the min max type of play is the only reason for the game.&nbsp;&nbsp; I'd like to say it's video game mentality but Role playing has been fighting that mentality since it started. That's why chainmail rules were tied to the AD&amp;D game. I think those kind of people have been running Pathfinder for a long time.&nbsp; Thus all the rules that punish creativity or originality.&nbsp;&nbsp; You see it all over the Pathfinder forums.&nbsp; I used to have long long arguments with people about magic.&nbsp; My basic position has been if players can do it bad guys can do it, other NPC's can do it so it shouldn't derail your game.&nbsp; But for the Puzzle players it's &quot;cheating&quot;,&nbsp; and they get confused when us roleplayers don't get that.&nbsp; That's why I quit participating on the pathfinder forums.&nbsp; It was like arguing with a robot customer service program.&nbsp; Everytime I'd try to explain why my perspective was different the conversation would reset to the begining and start over.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="nevin, post: 8106465, member: 7024481"] Zapp I think this is what led to pathfinder 2e. The pathfinder society games play much better with that dirty nitty gritty do it right or die environment. When you have to standardize everything to make it fair then you have to limit the roleplaying the DM can allow and then the tactical becomes the entire game. I don't know how many Con tournaments you've ever played in but that's why I gave them up. They weren't roleplaying games they were so limited that it was just a test to see if you could figure out the Puzzles. People that play that way get very confused when you try to explain to them that Role Playing games work better when you have a game master who can fudge, change or adjust any encounter on the fly. That was why they got invented. The Idea of someone adjusting the game to the players instead of just making the players suffer for doing it "Wrong" is confusing to them. For that kind of player "SKILL" in understanding the min max type of play is the only reason for the game. I'd like to say it's video game mentality but Role playing has been fighting that mentality since it started. That's why chainmail rules were tied to the AD&D game. I think those kind of people have been running Pathfinder for a long time. Thus all the rules that punish creativity or originality. You see it all over the Pathfinder forums. I used to have long long arguments with people about magic. My basic position has been if players can do it bad guys can do it, other NPC's can do it so it shouldn't derail your game. But for the Puzzle players it's "cheating", and they get confused when us roleplayers don't get that. That's why I quit participating on the pathfinder forums. It was like arguing with a robot customer service program. Everytime I'd try to explain why my perspective was different the conversation would reset to the begining and start over. [/QUOTE]

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