Reply to thread

Message

<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 8107875" data-attributes="member: 12731">On this subject:Not for nothing, &quot;surprise&quot; in this game is almost entirely removed.It isn't part of the rules AFAIK but I see adventures experimenting with stuff like &quot;The two monsters are verbally fighting, so you get +4 to your initiative rolls&quot;. This is instructive, since it tells us that in this game, getting a whole extra round the way surprise is normally implemented in fantasy ttrpgs is considered far too much an advantage.For instance, if you're talking to the mayor that you suspect is nasty shapechanging monster, you might plan to suddenly draw your weapon to stab her.In PF2 I take it that the GM should resolve this by making you determine initiative using a Deception roll vs the monster's &quot;Insight&quot; (=Perception). If the monster acts first, this needs to be interpreted as it seeing your hostility in your eyes, or when you glance towards your co-conspirators. And even if you get a &quot;drop&quot; on the monster, that merely means you act first. Just like winning initiative in regular combat. There ARE monsters and heroes that gain something extra for attacking foes before they have taken their first action, but generally it simply means that foe's reactions, auras etc haven't come online just yet.For most heroes rolling Deception is actually a nerf compared to &quot;I just draw my weapon normally&quot;.Sure the GM can decide to provide you with a bonus when and if you roll Initiative using a special skill, but that's up to each GM and not something the rules give you. Just being allowed to roll the special skill is painted out as advantage enough (which it rarely is in practice). Maybe those initiative rules were written before the decision to make Perception a secondary ability given to everybody instead of a skill you could suck at?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 8107875, member: 12731"] On this subject: Not for nothing, "surprise" in this game is almost entirely removed. It isn't part of the rules AFAIK but I see adventures experimenting with stuff like "The two monsters are verbally fighting, so you get +4 to your initiative rolls". This is instructive, since it tells us that in this game, getting a whole extra round the way surprise is normally implemented in fantasy ttrpgs is considered far too much an advantage. For instance, if you're talking to the mayor that you suspect is nasty shapechanging monster, you might plan to suddenly draw your weapon to stab her. In PF2 I take it that the GM should resolve this by making you determine initiative using a Deception roll vs the monster's "Insight" (=Perception). If the monster acts first, this needs to be interpreted as it seeing your hostility in your eyes, or when you glance towards your co-conspirators. And even if you get a "drop" on the monster, that merely means you act first. Just like winning initiative in regular combat. There ARE monsters and heroes that gain something extra for attacking foes before they have taken their first action, but generally it simply means that foe's reactions, auras etc haven't come online just yet. For most heroes rolling Deception is actually a nerf compared to "I just draw my weapon normally". Sure the GM can decide to provide you with a bonus when and if you roll Initiative using a special skill, but that's up to each GM and not something the rules give you. Just being allowed to roll the special skill is painted out as advantage enough (which it rarely is in practice). Maybe those initiative rules were written before the decision to make Perception a secondary ability given to everybody instead of a skill you could suck at? [/QUOTE]

Verification