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<blockquote data-quote="Ramaster" data-source="post: 7781382" data-attributes="member: 6687585"><p>Thank you for engaging too!</p><p></p><p>My parting thoughts on this exhausted topic:</p><p></p><p>If you decide that the negotiation should hinge on a final Persuasion check of DC 15... then why do you allow success on a 14? How is that better than "Mother May I?” The players worked HARD (in out of character energy and in character resources) to get to that point, don't rob them of their agency and effort. If you are not comfortable with the dice resolution system you shouldn't use it. It sometimes develops into these kinds of outcomes... much like real life. I don't think there's anything wrong with picking other resolution methods, mind you. Nor am I insisting that a theoretical purely objective method is strictly better. Apples and oranges. Pick the fruit that tastes better for you and your players. I know which one I would pick. And why.</p><p></p><p>Backing up a little bit... why did you choose 15 for the Persuasion DC? Different games handle the choosing of the DCs differently. I'm not all that familiar with the 5ed method for assigning DCs, but in Pathfinder, while some subjectivity of course applies, the method is clear cut. The DC for an Unfriendly character to grant a request is 20 + CHA modifier (plus or minus some other mods). If you describe the attitude of the NPC and consider the actions taken previously by the PCs and act in good faith, you can arrive at a relatively accurate, relatively objective (such as it is) DC if you have a definite, discrete definition of all these game terms (“What does being Friendly even mean?”). "After you impressed him on the dinner he is now Friendly (10+CHA), but the help you are asking is putting him at risk, since releasing the prisoner will be seen as an act of weakness by his rivals on the tribe (+10 DC), so roll diplomacy for a final DC of 23 (The NPCs CHA modifier is +3), you have an additional +2 circumstance bonus because you helped the second in command and she put a good word for you".</p><p></p><p>And if they fail... that's ok! If they had fun doing it I don't see it as having wasted 2 hours, I think it's the opposite, actually. They knew it was difficult going in and that failure was certainly a possible outcome. Now they have to return empty handed and the story continues. Can peace be achieved some other way? Perhaps they can send them tribute and re-negotiate. If they are only interested in releasing the prisoner, then a stealth rescue might be in order. Complications are good things. They make the plot have more verisimilitude.</p><p></p><p>The deeper point, however, has been reveled through the discussion. And I think addressing it is a great way for BOTH approaches to move forward and it’s something that was not addressed AT ALL on any version of D&D (or Pathfinder, for that matter) except for 4e (that provided a DREADFUL set of mechanics for it): Complex interactions shouldn't be resolved with a single die roll and success shouldn't be a binary issue. Degrees of Success and a relatively comprehensive Skill Challenge system are very much a necessity to adjudicate these kinds of situations. I've been working on a properly playtested Skill Challenge system for Pathfinder that provides Degrees of Success. A usable system will satisfy both approaches.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ramaster, post: 7781382, member: 6687585"] Thank you for engaging too! My parting thoughts on this exhausted topic: If you decide that the negotiation should hinge on a final Persuasion check of DC 15... then why do you allow success on a 14? How is that better than "Mother May I?” The players worked HARD (in out of character energy and in character resources) to get to that point, don't rob them of their agency and effort. If you are not comfortable with the dice resolution system you shouldn't use it. It sometimes develops into these kinds of outcomes... much like real life. I don't think there's anything wrong with picking other resolution methods, mind you. Nor am I insisting that a theoretical purely objective method is strictly better. Apples and oranges. Pick the fruit that tastes better for you and your players. I know which one I would pick. And why. Backing up a little bit... why did you choose 15 for the Persuasion DC? Different games handle the choosing of the DCs differently. I'm not all that familiar with the 5ed method for assigning DCs, but in Pathfinder, while some subjectivity of course applies, the method is clear cut. The DC for an Unfriendly character to grant a request is 20 + CHA modifier (plus or minus some other mods). If you describe the attitude of the NPC and consider the actions taken previously by the PCs and act in good faith, you can arrive at a relatively accurate, relatively objective (such as it is) DC if you have a definite, discrete definition of all these game terms (“What does being Friendly even mean?”). "After you impressed him on the dinner he is now Friendly (10+CHA), but the help you are asking is putting him at risk, since releasing the prisoner will be seen as an act of weakness by his rivals on the tribe (+10 DC), so roll diplomacy for a final DC of 23 (The NPCs CHA modifier is +3), you have an additional +2 circumstance bonus because you helped the second in command and she put a good word for you". And if they fail... that's ok! If they had fun doing it I don't see it as having wasted 2 hours, I think it's the opposite, actually. They knew it was difficult going in and that failure was certainly a possible outcome. Now they have to return empty handed and the story continues. Can peace be achieved some other way? Perhaps they can send them tribute and re-negotiate. If they are only interested in releasing the prisoner, then a stealth rescue might be in order. Complications are good things. They make the plot have more verisimilitude. The deeper point, however, has been reveled through the discussion. And I think addressing it is a great way for BOTH approaches to move forward and it’s something that was not addressed AT ALL on any version of D&D (or Pathfinder, for that matter) except for 4e (that provided a DREADFUL set of mechanics for it): Complex interactions shouldn't be resolved with a single die roll and success shouldn't be a binary issue. Degrees of Success and a relatively comprehensive Skill Challenge system are very much a necessity to adjudicate these kinds of situations. I've been working on a properly playtested Skill Challenge system for Pathfinder that provides Degrees of Success. A usable system will satisfy both approaches. [/QUOTE]
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