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Message: <blockquote data-quote="comrade raoul" data-source="post: 937502" data-attributes="member: 554">I just disagree here. Counting domain spells and excluding cantrips and orisons, a wizard 4/cleric 4 can cast (per day) 4 1st-level cleric spells, 3 1st-level wizard spells, 3 2nd-level cleric spells, and 2 2nd-level wizard spells (for a total of twelve spells). A cleric 8, on the other hand, can cast 5 1st-level spells, 4 2nd-level spells, 4 3rd-level spells, and 3 4th-level spells (for a total of sixteen spells); the wizard 8 can cast 4 1st-level spells, 3 2nd-level spells, 3 3rd-level spells, and 2 4th-level spells (for a total of twelve spells).This means that the multiclassed caster (without Arcane Dilettante and Mystic Theurgy) loses total spells per day with respect to the pure cleric and has just as many as the pure wizard. And, of course, he's limited to second-level spells when the pure casters can cast 4th-level spells, he's got a significantly worse caster level, and he loses out on bonus feats, familiar advancement, or turning undead. Could you explain to me how the wizard 4/cleric 4 is "just as powerful" as a wizard 8 or cleric 8? What role are they going to fill, and how are they going to do it?Yes, that's true. The problem is that I believe (and others do as well -- this issue has been discussed at length) that multiclassed spellcasters are excessively punished by the D&D class system.The reason for this has to do with the fact that spellcasting classes gain abilities in a subtly different way than nonspellcasting classes. Most nonspellcasting classes gain abilities in a more-or-less linear sort of way: that is, an extra level at higher levels represents a comparable increase in power to an extra level at lower levels. Fighters are a good example here: the two levels from fighter 4 to fighter 6 yield exactly the same benefit that the two levels from fighter 14 to fighter 16 do: a single bonus feat of choice. Barbarians, rogues, monks, and rangers (front-loading and similar issues aside), are all fairly close to this phenomenon, although they don't have quite the linear advancement that fighters do.Spellcasting classes, on the other hand, have exponential growth: higher levels have increasing marginal benefits. For example, compare the difference between the boost in power from wizard 4 to wizard 6 and the boost from wizard 14 to wizard 16. Over these levels, both wizards get a bonus feat, two more caster levels, and some familiar advancement. What spells do they learn? The lower-level wizard gets one more 2nd-level spell and two more 3rd-level spells (plus any bonus 3rd-level spells that his Intelligence qualifies him for). The higher-level wizard, on the other hand, gets one more 5th-level spell, one more 7th-level spell, and two more 8th-level spells (plus, again, any bonus spells). Over two levels, the higher-level caster both gets more spells and much better spells. That is, ask yourself -- if you had the choice between getting 2nd and 3rd level spells or 5th, 7th, and 8th level spells, which would you take?The point is that the expontential growth of spellcasting classes means that n levels in a spellcasting class are clearly better that n/2 levels in two spellcasting classes, while the linear growth of nonspellcasting classes means that n levels in a nonspellcasting class are roughly as good as n/2 levels in two nonspellcasting classes.So as multiclassed characters become more experienced and begin to face higher-level challenges, they gain less marginal benefit from the portion of levels in a spellcasting class that they have. These feats aim to address that.Does that clarify things some?</blockquote>

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