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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sylrae" data-source="post: 4286231" data-attributes="member: 48520">I meant a cleric based around planar shifting spells and planar binding. There's a bit of stuff, but not enough to make it your main focus anymore. I thought you were referring to the removal of familiars, not the removal of summons. (not Both). and yeah~ that bugs me. as you could see it was right at the top of my list as far as PHB goes.Hmm. very strange. I admit, I didn't even look at the warlord twice. I figured it was a fighter with some leadership abilities. Which it sortof is, but its a little more bardlike than I was expecting. Still not quite as good, with the lack of spells, but its much closer than I was expecting. It Kindof works, though the key elements of a druid are things you think had good reason to be removed in many instances. the animal based spells were big, and I'd definitely miss things like barkskin, and entangle is definitely a bigger spell than web, but I guess web works as a small scale substitute. Liveoak would definitely be missed. I suppose if you took some warlock wizard and cleric together youd have a sort of druid substitute, but it would be lacking some of the key abilities I would want, and I'm not sure what the limits of 4e multiclassing are yet. I'll have to look over them again. Can you have stuff from 3 classes? Fair enough. This one is stretching it more than a little. I suppose it's as close as you're gonna get though. I was referring to class abilities that are non-combat, not skill points. These are I suppose sortof what I was going for, but they don't focus on the main things I was looking for very much. They just have a handful of the abilities.I do concede, however, that your efforts are making me reconsider 4e a bit more. I was enthused about it for a bit then I looked at it and playtested it and thought it might not be worth the cash to get it. Instead of just adding 4e elements to my 3.x game I may go the other route and use 4e as the base for my games. It's a bit oversimplified for me, but having at wills, encounters, and dailies is something I like, and a bunch of the new mechanics are an improvement.I dont like all the stuff you cant swap out as much though. It seems the effect they were going for with the classes was modularity. maybe they should have gone modular all the way. your monk setup is sortof viable, but all the naturey stuff could go out the window.It may not be as hard to houserule 4e to be the game I'm looking for afterall (though I don't think I'm going to ever want to use minis <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue    :P"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" />). I imagine it won't take that many houserules more than my 3.x games. (I'm up to 75 pages for my upcoming campaign, counting custom races, classes, feats, spells, and mechanics) I use so many houserules I might just make my own PHB for my players. lol (I've been seriously considering it.) Some ofthe houserules are constant (about 40 pages worth) and the rest are more to do with the custom setting I'm using.There are things about 4e that bug me in the core books, but given time for houserule designing and some further supplements it might work out for me. I will probably hate the new FR (don't like what I have heard) (I liked its completeness - even the part where the players could say I was wrong occasionally if they had evidence of something I didn't know), but FR is one of those love it or hate it things. I don't get their new design plan on that one. they said its effectively a new setting and all the main things that make it FR will be gone. if thats the case why not just make a new setting? the FR players I've talked to don't think they'll like it, and the people who do seem to like it are those who hated FR. you'd think instead of getting rid of the FR fans they would just make something else for the people who don't like FR.derailing the topic just a little more, what about the Races? without LAs, and with no negative stat mods, what is it that makes the creation of new races viable (I mean, you could make a handful, but there's only so many combinations of +2 to one stat and +2 to another that you can make)? plus wouldnt the lack of LAs make it virtually impossible to make races with really outlandish abilities?</blockquote>

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