Another Spellpoints Approach: Mana Dice

[tingbudong]

Hi,
I am sure the idea of spellpoints has frequently been discussed on these and other boards, but I recently got another idea, which in itself is not that original but which I have not seen put into d20 rules so far.

Now while both spell slots and spell points are a good and valid approach, they both have the (minor) flaw that they are a new element introduced into the basic rules, giving spellcasting characters a different rules mechanic for their abilities than other classes. Surely this is not dramatic in any way, but I like symmetry and coherence in rules, so I thought about a variant similar to hit dice: the mana dice.

Hit dice reflect a pool of points whose size indicates a character's competence in battle (i.e. how many blows he can take before he drops). Why not use a similar mechanic to indicate a character's competence in manipulating magical energies? Every class would be given a mana dice value just as it has a hit dice value. Classes without magical capabilities would have very low magical skills (i.e. barbarians or fighters), while classes that focus on spellcasting have a higher mana dice.
Spells are cast by spending mana points which regenerate at a daily level, just like hit points. On each mana dice, characters gain a bonus amount equal to their wisdom, as it represents spirituality and, well, wisdom. Each spell costs an amount of mana equal to twice its spell level (level 0 spells cost 1 mana). Metamagic feats only affect the spell's level in terms of mana, so even a first level spellcaster can cast a quickened spell, but it will drain him of mana for most of the day.

A rough sketch of the mana dice for the base classes might be:

Barbarian: d4
Bard: d6
Cleric: d8
Druid: d8
Fighter: d4
Monk: d4
Paladin: d6
Ranger: d6
Rogue: d4
Sorceror: d12
Wizard: d8

So a wizard with wisdom 14 would have 10 mana points at first level, so he could cast 10 0th-level spells, 5 1st-level spells or any combination of the two. Under the core magic rules, this compares to 3 0th-level spells (3 mana) and two 1st-level spells (4 mana).

The main consequence is that spellcasters are more flexible in their spellcasting. Divine spellcasters probably need some rules changes as to what spells they can cast (maybe more restrictive lists according to domain plus a few elective spells - would have the side effect of not all clerics knowing the same spells). Also, multiclass spellcasters would increase their mana even when advancing in nonmagical classes, although at a much slower rate. This could soften the problems spellcasters face when multiclassing while keeping most of the balancing drawbacks.
Also there could be interesting magical items which store the knowledge of one spell which could be used like a potion except that it is not consumed and drains mana from its user.

So what do you think? Are there any serious metagame implications that I have overlooked? Could this system work with some finetuning?

tbd

 

[evilbob]

Not a bad idea. ...Here are a few tips:
- Why not have each class add their primary spellcasting modifier instead of just wisdom everytime? ...Unless multiple stat requirements is part of the penalty of the tremendous advantage of mana points?
- Why give non-casting classes any mana at all? I don't think a barbarian who suddenly multiclasses into a wizard at 10th level should have more mana than a 1st level wizard.
- Your example was somewhat confusing: is the mana die something they -roll- or do they just -get- that much mana? In other words, would a 1st level wizard just -get- 8 + mod mana, or do they -roll- a d8 and add their mod? If that's the case, the wizard above would have an average of 6.5 (using your given stats), as opposed to 10.
- As I said before in my own spell-point thread (shameless plug ), giving prepared-casters what effectively amounts to spontaneous casting needs a MUCH higher cost somehow, and taking it away from sorcs and bards needs a bigger positive offset. In other words, the game mechanic you've suggested makes wizards, druids, clerics, etc. about 3 or 4 times more powerful than before (FAR outdistancing the other classes), and makes sorcs and bards much, much weaker.

 

[tingbudong]

The wisdom modifier as bonus mana points came from the hit dice analogy. Using spellcasting modifiers would automatically eliminate non-spellcasters gaining mana.

Non-spellcasters gaining mana is again a result of the hit dice analogy. Mana in this model is supposed to indicate to what degree a character can manipulate magical energies. Just like spellcasters are bad in combat (low HD), non-spellcasters would be bad at magic (low MD). You are right though about the high-level barbarian becoming a spellcaster. You could argue that with higher life experience and 'wisdom' (not the ability) magical energies can more easily be manipulated. Also, since barbarians have a d4 mana dice, mana from their classes would be very limited (3-4 per level assuming a reasonable wisdom of 12), which would very much be outweighed by a character having more levels in a spellcasting class (at least in theory).

I am aware of this rule making sorcerors and bards weaker in comparison. That is why a sorceror gets more mana than all other classes per level. The bard gets less because he is a jack of all trades and his bag of tricks is not limited to his spells. Once he runs out of mana, he can still do a lot of other things, whereas a manaless wizard will be a sitting duck. Also, mana costs for a bard will be lower, as his spells go only up to 6th level, or 12th mana points. A wizard needs to shell out up to 18 mana (before applying metamagic) for a spell. This is a balancing factor, so different classes' mana dice need to be viewed in relation to the costs they will be paying. These things demand extensive playtesting though.

I realize the flaw in my example. I was assuming that mana dice behaved exactly like hit dice, so you get the maximum value at first level (8 from a d8).

Now for a better example: A fighter 7 with 10 wisdom will have 4 (lv 1) + 6 x 2.5 (additional fighter levels) = 19 mana points.

By comparison a sorceror 7 with the same wisdom will have 12 (lv 1) + 6 x 6.5 (additional sorceror levels) = 51 mana points. This does not take into consideration that in reality sorcerors will be more likely to invest in wisdom, increasing that gap further.

Does this make these rules more clear?

tbd

 

[Jer]

Hit dice reflect a pool of points whose size indicates a character's competence in battle (i.e. how many blows he can take before he drops). Why not use a similar mechanic to indicate a character's competence in manipulating magical energies? Every class would be given a mana dice value just as it has a hit dice value. Classes without magical capabilities would have very low magical skills (i.e. barbarians or fighters), while classes that focus on spellcasting have a higher mana dice.

Spells are cast by spending mana points which regenerate at a daily level, just like hit points. On each mana dice, characters gain a bonus amount equal to their wisdom, as it represents spirituality and, well, wisdom. Each spell costs an amount of mana equal to twice its spell level (level 0 spells cost 1 mana). Metamagic feats only affect the spell's level in terms of mana, so even a first level spellcaster can cast a quickened spell, but it will drain him of mana for most of the day.

You will probably need to adjust the recovery rate for mana, since regaining Wisdom bonus per level per night will result in spellcasters not being able to cast many spells in a day. Hit points have the same problem if the party doesn't have much in the way of healing magic, and I can't imagine you'd have a spell that restores mana (because that would be just plain weird).

So a wizard with wisdom 14 would have 10 mana points at first level, so he could cast 10 0th-level spells, 5 1st-level spells or any combination of the two. Under the core magic rules, this compares to 3 0th-level spells (3 mana) and two 1st-level spells (4 mana).

But remember, that's only if he recovers all of his mana per day. And you should really look at higher level casters (5th, 10th and 15th) in addition to 1st to see how things scale up over time.

The main consequence is that spellcasters are more flexible in their spellcasting. Divine spellcasters probably need some rules changes as to what spells they can cast (maybe more restrictive lists according to domain plus a few elective spells - would have the side effect of not all clerics knowing the same spells). Also, multiclass spellcasters would increase their mana even when advancing in nonmagical classes, although at a much slower rate. This could soften the problems spellcasters face when multiclassing while keeping most of the balancing drawbacks.
Also there could be interesting magical items which store the knowledge of one spell which could be used like a potion except that it is not consumed and drains mana from its user.

If you want to keep around "preparation" of spells for classes, you don't really need to change anything. Wizards and Clerics would have to assign their mana pools to spells at sunrise (or whenever) just like they dedicate slots now.

If you want to get rid of preparation and allow all spells to be spontaneously cast, the you'd want to merge the sorcerer and the wizard together into one class anyway. Forcing clerics and druids to select a smaller list of spells and allowing them to cast them spontaneously isn't really a bad idea anyway, but you'd want to have a mechanic in there for them to gain new spells if your players are anything like mine.

So what do you think? Are there any serious metagame implications that I have overlooked? Could this system work with some finetuning?

I think it could work, but you might find that there isn't much difference between this and a set spell points per level system, other than the added randomness of the mana dice. Even though the average mana earned will work out over time, at individual levels you may end up with some disappointed players. Its horrible for the party Fighter to roll a "2" at second level, and I'd imagine it would almost be worse to be the sorcerer who rolls a "2" at second level for his mana points - at least the cleric has your back if you're the Fighter with lousy hit points.

Also, if you're making Wisdom the bonus stat for mana, you might want to change divine caster's spellcasting attribute to Charisma instead of Wisdom. With a Fighter, his hit points are determined separately from his attack bonuses. A Cleric who has his mana points determined by the same stat that determines the strength of his spells might be too good.

One thing that I do like about a system that gives mana points to all classes is that you can look at powering some of the classes abilities with mana points. Like the Monk's ki strikes, or the Barbarian's rage abilties. These could use up the mana pool for the character instead of just having "uses per day". You'd need to be careful with this, though, since you could end up with players gaming the system and taking a level of sorcerer just to get more mana to push their abilties, so this might not be a good idea.

 

[evilbob]

Does this make these rules more clear?

Ok, I see - I understand your system better now. Thanks for the clarification!


Personally, I'm still on the fence as to whether or not barbarians should be gaining mana at all, but I do like the suggestion that a barbarian's mana could be used to fuel rage or other abilities. ...Another idea would be to say that each class's mana pool is separate (similar to spells-per-day), so effectively only mana gained -as- a wizard could be used to cast wizard spells. (But that goes back to: why give non-casters mana at all?) I also agree that divine casters should probably have either a different primary stat or a different mana stat to help balance their ability.

I am aware of this rule making sorcerors and bards weaker in comparison. That is why a sorceror gets more mana than all other classes per level. The bard gets less because he is a jack of all trades and his bag of tricks is not limited to his spells.

Yes, but I encourage you to run some numbers and see just how much weaker this makes sorcs and bards. Sorcs get about 2.5 times the number of spells per day a wizard gets already - and you're shortening this to 1.5, and taking away (if all casters are spontaneous) the main advantage they had over wizards (bards too - dispite their lower casting costs). You may need to make their mana die a d20, or at least 2d8 or 2d10, just to balance the casting costs - and then they really need something else to help over and beyond.


However, this being said: in yet another shameless plug I believe that "mana dice" is an good dynamic that might fit in extremely well to the system I proposed in another thread... I think I will try to incorporate this, giving you credit, if you don't mind.

 

[tingbudong]

Thanks for all your input, it's been very helpful so far. Of course I don't mind you using this system for your own work, after all I posted it publicly.

Your points about wisdom-based casters being too powerful with this system, as all their spellcasting is affected by only one stat, is very valid. I had been thinking about that as well, but I have not come up with a good solution for it yet.

Also, what do you mean with 'keeping preparation'? I just stated that the amount of spells divine spellcasters know has to be limited, since casting spontaneously with access to the full list would be extremely powerful. Plus I never liked that rule anyway, it made all druids, clerics etc. seem the same in terms of their spells. What I was thinking of was to introduce a spells known list for each class, in the terms of clerics mostly determined by their domains, plus X elective spells as they like (so there is variation but a cleric's spellcasting depends on what type of faith he has - the way it should be in my opinion). However they would still cast spells spontaneously, spending mana as they cast.

One idea would be to have mana regenerate on an hourly basis, so that during bigger encounters like a dungeon, spellcasters' mana would be constant, but in between encounters it could replenish a bit. This would also solve the problem of spellcasters being useless once they used up their spells.

In terms of the sorceror, he could get class abilities that increased his total mana or made his use of mana more effective, so that he would be the class with the fewest spells known and the highest amount of spells per day, just as it was intended in the first place.

In general all classes are intended to be balanced by their mana to spells known ratio. Wizards have relatively few spells per day but can draw from an unlimited amount of knowledge, sorcerors know only few spells but can cast them a lot, and druids and clerics have access to a moderate amount of specialized spells (faith and nature) with an average amount of spells per day.
Bards, rangers and paladins would probably benefit the most from this rule, as they would accumulate quite a lot mana in relation to the amount of spells they are meant to cast. I am going to run a few more numbers for various classes and levels today to see where the flaws lie.

The idea of spending mana for class features is a good idea, especially for the more supernatural abilities like some monk abilities or smite evil, turn undead, etc. Plus it would introduce a precendence for prestige or other classes gaining exclusive and exotic spells in the shape of class abilities.

tbd

 

[Jer]

Thanks for all your input, it's been very helpful so far. Of course I don't mind you using this system for your own work, after all I posted it publicly.

Your points about wisdom-based casters being too powerful with this system, as all their spellcasting is affected by only one stat, is very valid. I had been thinking about that as well, but I have not come up with a good solution for it yet.

I'd suggest using Charisma or Intelligence as a replacement attribute, depending on the particular caster class. It would be nice if there was one for arcane spells and one for divine spells, but the Wizard/Sorcerer dynamic would need to be changed and that would be eliminating another thing that makes the Sorcerer and Wizard classes different.

I'm not sure how you'd break it down, though. My tendency would be to use Charisma for everyone and somehow I don't think that's right (especially because the Cleric and the Paladin already use their Charisma for their Turn Undead abilities).

Also, what do you mean with 'keeping preparation'? I just stated that the amount of spells divine spellcasters know has to be limited, since casting spontaneously with access to the full list would be extremely powerful. Plus I never liked that rule anyway, it made all druids, clerics etc. seem the same in terms of their spells. What I was thinking of was to introduce a spells known list for each class, in the terms of clerics mostly determined by their domains, plus X elective spells as they like (so there is variation but a cleric's spellcasting depends on what type of faith he has - the way it should be in my opinion). However they would still cast spells spontaneously, spending mana as they cast.

Sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying. I didn't realize for some reason that all spells would be spontaneous. Given that, something like the spells known list would probably work out fine, but you'll definitely want to have some kind of mechanism for characters to add spells to their spells known lists - unless you don't let your players choose new spells from new supplements. I know that's one of the big sticking points with my Sorcerer player - he sees spells that fit his character better in a supplement and he wants to add them, but he can't shift his spells around.

One idea would be to have mana regenerate on an hourly basis, so that during bigger encounters like a dungeon, spellcasters' mana would be constant, but in between encounters it could replenish a bit. This would also solve the problem of spellcasters being useless once they used up their spells.

Beware of unintended consequences, though. I've tried "recharge" systems before, and one thing that happens is that the party "Healer" can end up having an unlimited number of healing spells just by waiting to recharge. This means in every battle, the PCs could be at full hit points every time. Also, they won't have to worry about budgeting their resources (much) for "buff" spells or blasting spells during combat, so they will almost always be fighting at "full power" in every battle. This may not be a problem - good for a high magic sort of setting, or if you're replicating the type of magic that you see in a MMORPG.

The idea of spending mana for class features is a good idea, especially for the more supernatural abilities like some monk abilities or smite evil, turn undead, etc. Plus it would introduce a precendence for prestige or other classes gaining exclusive and exotic spells in the shape of class abilities.

I personally don't like the fact that many of the different classes have supernatural abilities, but they they each have different systems for handling them. I wouldn't mind seeing a single system for tracking the resources that they have available and letting them give up, say, a single rage in exchange for casting an extra spell. Balancing that may be a beast, though.

 

[Arkhandus]

What was mentioned about preparation was, simply, the fact that part of what balances the casters is that all but bards and sorcerers have to prepare their spells each day. Giving all casters spontaneous casting means that bards and sorcerers lose about half or a third of their spellcasting advantage over other casters, and thus makes them much weaker by comparison (why take levels of sorcerer if wizards cast just the same and only have a few less MP per day? Wizards get more feats and spells known, have the option of specializing, and gain access to new spell levels sooner).

BTW, someone said sorcerers normally get 2.5x as many spells per day than a wizard; which is false, as sorcerers get about 1.5x as many spells per day (6 per spell level rather than 4 per spell level, which is a 50% increase over the wizard). This mana point system leaves sorcerers at the same equivalency (d12 over d8 per level is a roughly 50% advantage), but since it makes all casters spontaneous, sorcerers end up shortchanged on feats, skills, and spell level access (gaining access to each spell level 1 class level later than a wizard would). With sorcerers based on Charisma for casting power/access, they don't get as many other benefits for a good casting stat, whereas wizards get more skill points and such from their typically-good Intelligence casting stat. Bards are similarly weakened (bad enough that bards are only good in support roles, even though their abilities are fairly diverse; they really don't deserve being weakened more; they already suffer from Multiple Ability Dependency as-is, like monks do).

I'd change sorcerers to getting a d10 for mana dice, and bards to d4 MD, while giving both sorcerers and bards the special benefit that they add their Charisma modifier at each level in the class to their total mana points (in addition to their Wisdom modifier). So sorcerers and bards, while losing their spontaneous casting advantage, can potentially gain a few extra MP per level.

I'd suggest having mana recharge to full once each day after 8 hours of sleep (or the equivalent). Or, if you want to be stingy and make spellcasters much less effective, change recharge rates to be just like natural healing of HP, except maybe adding Wis mod to the amount regained each day.

In any case, this system makes divine casters much more powerful, since Wisdom is also their prime spellcasting stat. I'd suggest setting paladin and ranger Mana Dice to d3, while setting cleric and druid mana dice to d6. Their typically-above-average-to-high Wisdom scores will still generally make their total MP equal or exceed that of wizards, and possibly that of some bards or sorcerers.

 

[evilbob]

BTW, someone said sorcerers normally get 2.5x as many spells per day than a wizard; which is false, as sorcerers get about 1.5x as many spells per day (6 per spell level rather than 4 per spell level, which is a 50% increase over the wizard).

That was me, and you're right: I was completely off on that one.

 

[tingbudong]

This is a more detailed version of the system. The sorcerer class abilities and the mana-related feats are still work in progress and will see some more additions. I left out the monk for now since I have no practical experience with his higher-level abilities so that mana costs for class abilities would be guesses at best. Also the exact spells known for the cleric by domain are not yet included.

Mana Dice System

Premise: All spellcasting classes cast spells spontaneously by spending mana points. The amount of mana points is represented by a mana dice which behaves like a hit dice. Whenever a character gains a new level, he rolls the mana dice of the class he is advancing in and adds his spellcasting ability's modifier to determine the total number of mana points gained. Spent mana points are regenerated at a rate of 1 per character level per hour. If a whole hour is spent resting, characters regenerate twice that amount.

The spellcasting abilities of the core classes are altered as follows:

Bard
The bard gains (1d6 + charisma modifier) mana points per level. His number of spells known is unaltered.
The bard's class features are altered as follows:
Bardic music: The bard has an unlimited number of uses for his bardic music ability. Each use has a mana cost of 3.

Cleric
The cleric gains (1d8 + wisdom modifier) mana points per level. His known spells are determined by his chosen domains. He also gains a number of bonus spells of his choice equal to his wisdom modifier (min 1). At each level after that, he may choose an additional spell of his choice.
The cleric's class features are altered as follows:
Turn undead: The cleric gains this ability at 1st level at a mana cost of twice his level. This ability may be reduced in effective level to reduce the mana cost accordingly.

Druid
The druid gains (1d8 + wisdom modifier) mana points per level. At first level he may choose a number of spells known equal to (3 + his wisdom modifier). He gains two additional spells per additional level.

Paladin
The paladin gains (1d6 + wisdom modifier) mana points per level. Starting level four, he gains a number of spells equal to his wisdom modifier (min 1). He gains one additional spell per two additional levels. Starting level 8, he may select 2nd-level spells. Starting level 11, he may select 3rd-level spells. Starting level 14, he may select 4th-level spells.
The paladin's class features are altered as follows:
Detect evil: The paladin gains this ability as a bonus spell with a mana cost of 1.
Lay on hands: The paladin may spend 2 mana to heal a number of hit points equal to his charisma modifier (min 1). This ability may be used any number of times within one turn on the same character.
Smite Evil: The paladin gains this ability at first level at a mana cost of twice his paladin level. This ability may be reduced in effective level to reduce the mana cost accordingly.
Turn undead: The paladin gains this ability at 4th level at a mana cost of 2 x (level – 2). This ability may be reduced in effective level to reduce the mana cost accordingly.
Remove disease: The paladin may use this spell at a mana cost of 6.

Ranger
The ranger gains (1d4 + wisdom modifier) mana points per level. Starting level four, he gains a number of spells equal to his wisdom modifier (min 1). He gains one additional spell per two additional levels. Starting level 8, he may select 2nd-level spells. Starting level 11, he may select 3rd-level spells. Starting level 14, he may select 4th-level spells.

Wizard
The wizard gains (1d8 + intelligence modifier) mana points per level. His number of spells known is unchanged. Specialist wizards select prohibited schools as normal and reduce mana costs for spells of the school they are specializing in by 1, to a minimum of 1.

Sorcerer
The sorcerer gains (1d12 + charisma modifier) mana points per level. His number of spells known is unchanged. Sorcerers also gain a bonus ability at every fourth level, chosen from the list below.

Bonus Feat: The sorcerer may choose a bonus feat for which he meets the prerequisites. This feat may be drawn from the metamagic feats or one of the following:

Bonus spell: The sorcerer gains an additional spell which must be at least one level below the maximum spell level available to him at that level.

Mana storage: The sorcerer may spend an amount of mana equal to up to twice his caster level. This mana is not used to cast a spell but instead 'stored' for up to 24 hours. As a full round action, he may retrieve up to his charisma modifier (min 1) in mana points and add them to his current mana amount. He may not exceed his maximum mana points in this way.

Overchannel: The sorcerer may spend twice the base mana cost when casting a spell to increase the spell's caster level by the spell's level. This deals 1d4 points of nonlethal damage to the sorcerer.
Example: A 6th-level sorcerer overchannels a fireball which as a 3rd-level spell has a mana cost of 6. He instead spends 12 mana and increases the spell's effective caster level by 3 to a total of 9th level, adjusting the spell's effects accordingly.

Quick Replenish: The sorcerer adds his charisma modifier to his caster level when determining the amount of mana regenerated per hour.

Signature spell: Choose one spell known to the sorcerer which must be at least one spell level below the maximum spell level available to the sorcerer at that time. Whenever the sorcerer casts the chosen spell, reduce the total mana cost by 2, to a minimum of 1. This ability may be chosen multiple times, each time for a different spell.

Non-spellcasting classes
Barbarians, fighters, monks and rogues gain (1d4 + intelligence modifier) mana points per additional level.

New Feats

Improved Spirituality [General]
Prerequisites: Spirituality
Benefit: You gain +1 mana point per level.
Note: A sorcerer may choose this feat as a bonus feat.

Spirituality [General]
Benefit: You gain +3 mana points.
Special: This feat may be chosen any number of times. Its effects stack.
Note: A sorcerer may choose this feat as a bonus feat.

Signature Ability [General]
Prerequisites: caster level 5th
Benefit: Choose any of your class abilities with a mana cost. That cost is reduced by 2, to a minimum of 1.
Special: This feat may be chosen any number of times. Each time, select a new suitable class feature.
Note: A sorcerer may choose this feat as a bonus feat.