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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DreamChaser" data-source="post: 2970345" data-attributes="member: 1190">I confidently put forth that this utterly contradicts the very concept of "simple" it applies within Occam's Razor. It requires adding content and functionality to the spells that is simply not supported or implied.Simple is, in this case, the realization that either 1) the definition of Conjuration (Creation) spells is flawed and does not apply or 2) the orb spells do not fit within that definition.As the other spells within the school seem to create a specific thing with definable physical characteristics as we know the concept--with the possible exception of Gate, Mage Armor, and Faithful Hound--and the orb spells do not--a sonic orb, orb of cold, or orb of force are not definable physical objects--the SIMPLEST explanation is that the orb spells fail to meet the basic critereon of a Conjuration (Creation) spell. Occam's Razon seems to indicate then that they do not properly belong to that school.Now, let's consider this principle; consider the definition of Evocation from the SRDThe key passage here is "create something out of nothing." In essence, Conjuration (Creation) and Evocation spells appear to do the same thing. BUT evocation has no limitation that the thing created be an object or creature. Thus, again with Occam's Razor, given the choice between Conjuration (Creation) and Evocation when choosing the school for a spell that creates a thing that is not an object or creature from nothing, one must choose Evocation.What does all this mean? That the orb spells are internally inconsistent with the rest of the magic system; they appear to have been specifically created to circumvent some aspect of the magic system (as postulated by someone above, to get around the SR problem). Regardless, at the time that AMF was created, the Orb spells were no where on the horizon but other Conjuration (Creation) spells that do fit the critereon of the sub school did (create water for example); thus the clarification that instant Creation spells are not affected by AMF if the thing created is brought into the field.There is something that muddies the water even further; with only a couple of exceptions (the orb spells, acid splash, acid arrow) creation spells have a point of origin and are affected by physical forces normally. You throw fire seeds, wind disperces the fog spells, created water flows or can be kept in a bowl. Even Ice Knife (from Spell Compendium), creates a knife which must then be thrown. The exceptions provide something that no other spell of the sub school provides: motive force. This creates a situation where all aspects of these direct damage conjurations becomes suspect. Their effects fit Evocation more than Conjuration (especially when one considers that right or wrong acid is a form of ENERGY in D&D); as Conjurations create objects or creatures, acid, fire, sound, cold (not ice), electricity, and force do not apply. Second, with the exception of those spells which violate the first maxim, no Creation spells provide motive force to the effect (caveat: cloudkill emanates from the caster in a manner unlike any other spell and may require further study along these lines, mage armor creates force which implies that it, like Shield, should be abjuration). The bead from a fireball spell has motive force in the same way that the orbs and arrows of the above spells do. For an Evocation spell to create motive force (simply another type of energy) makes sense; not so for Conjuration spells.In summation, the orb spells (and other direct damage conjuration spell) are highly suspect as Conjurations at all. Their effects and behavior are far more in line with Evocation. An excellent example of directed damage from a true Conjuration (Creation) spell would be the above mentioned Ice Knife. The spell description indicates how the knife is created and what happens upon impact. Now here is the odd thing: The physical effect (piercing damage) is obvious and would apply within an AMF. The secondary magical effect (the cold damage) is affected by SR (defying the rule that started this thread) and thus would also be affected by an AMF. Unfortunately, the spell does not clearly state what aspects of the spell effect are affected by SR; the spell is not perfect, it simply demonstrates what a Conjuration (Creation) damage spell should be.Thanks you if you actually read all this.DC</blockquote>

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