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<blockquote data-quote="evileeyore" data-source="post: 196473" data-attributes="member: 1768">Actually he does.&nbsp; He saw this spell in my line up and was drooling.&nbsp; Of course as a Sorceror I am very limited in my spell choices (I am using MCooke's Sorceror).&nbsp; And how is it cheese?Heck there are 3-4 of us (out of 6 pcs) that are completely immune to Zone of Speed (the cleric has an SR of 17 and FoM, I have DDoor, the druid has FoM, the monk is closing on Abundant Step, our bard/shadowdancer has Blink and is closing on ShadowStep, the rogue/assassin he's screwed unless he gets better at UMD and gets a wand of FoM/Blink/DDoor...)As long as spells work the same way for the villians as well as the pcs it ain't cheese.&nbsp; Just tonite my Sorceror cast Dimension Door 3 times in the same combat, twice just to move 50'...And no Zones of Speed were not dropped, I just didn't feel like walking the 50'...&nbsp; (I had boots of Haste active, and no reason to cast more than one attack spell per round)Heck we get hit by weird spells all the time.&nbsp; As players we don't really have time to read up on every spell out there.&nbsp; So when one of us is hit by a Condemn (Relics and Rituals) and the casters can't identify it off hand, well we learn the hard way.And damn it sometimes you need spells that don't allow for saves.&nbsp; Are all saveless spells broken?Hell No.Ice Storm.&nbsp; For the longest time in our first campaign I hated this spell.&nbsp; My elven rogue got swatted with it left, right, and center.&nbsp; Did I think it was broken?&nbsp; No.&nbsp; Did I have a Reflex save better than a 8+ from day one.&nbsp; Yes.&nbsp; Did I live in fear of Will saves?&nbsp; Yes.&nbsp; Did I ever got Dominated?&nbsp; Yes.Any save spell.&nbsp; Did my dwarven monk in our second campign fear them?&nbsp; No.&nbsp; Did he have saves of 8+ across the board and great HP from day one?&nbsp; Yes.&nbsp; Did he fear saveless spells.&nbsp; No.&nbsp; Did he learn too?&nbsp; Hell yeah!'Saveless spells' are some of the most useless spells in most occasions.&nbsp; But they shine when they have their moment.Ice Storm.&nbsp; Does 5d6 dam.&nbsp; Period.&nbsp; Doesn't scale.&nbsp; After the Rogue gets Prot Elements cast on him, all he fears is the 3d6 blunt trauma.&nbsp; Did it still scare the shiznay out of my Rogue 12/Wiz 1 Elf?&nbsp; Yup.&nbsp; Especially when an invisible, hasted, flying mage was casting it twice a round.Zone of Speed.&nbsp; Does it stop 10th levels NPCs?&nbsp; It shouldn't.&nbsp; Does it stop/slow their minions?&nbsp; When I place a handful of them properly, yup.Is it unfair?&nbsp; Bah.&nbsp; That question isn't worth my time.Your assumption it says bad things about my ability to play fair?Well I have nothing nice to say about you either. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f644.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":rolleyes:" title="Roll eyes&nbsp; &nbsp; :rolleyes:"&nbsp; data-smilie="11"data-shortname=":rolleyes:" />TTFNPS: The rest of this note is for the non-JLXC readers.&nbsp; I included mentions of Ice Storm repeatedly as it is a wonderful non-save spell.&nbsp; I in no way condone the dissing of Ice Storm.&nbsp; In fact i encourage its creative use amongst the DMing populace to badger poor rogues into ground.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin&nbsp; &nbsp; :D"&nbsp; data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /></blockquote>

[QUOTE="evileeyore, post: 196473, member: 1768"] Actually he does. He saw this spell in my line up and was drooling. Of course as a Sorceror I am very limited in my spell choices (I am using MCooke's Sorceror). And how is it cheese? Heck there are 3-4 of us (out of 6 pcs) that are completely immune to Zone of Speed (the cleric has an SR of 17 and FoM, I have DDoor, the druid has FoM, the monk is closing on Abundant Step, our bard/shadowdancer has Blink and is closing on ShadowStep, the rogue/assassin he's screwed unless he gets better at UMD and gets a wand of FoM/Blink/DDoor...) As long as spells work the same way for the villians as well as the pcs it ain't cheese. Just tonite my Sorceror cast Dimension Door 3 times in the same combat, twice just to move 50'... And no Zones of Speed were not dropped, I just didn't feel like walking the 50'... (I had boots of Haste active, and no reason to cast more than one attack spell per round) Heck we get hit by weird spells all the time. As players we don't really have time to read up on every spell out there. So when one of us is hit by a Condemn (Relics and Rituals) and the casters can't identify it off hand, well we learn the hard way. And damn it sometimes you need spells that don't allow for saves. Are all saveless spells broken? Hell No. Ice Storm. For the longest time in our first campaign I hated this spell. My elven rogue got swatted with it left, right, and center. Did I think it was broken? No. Did I have a Reflex save better than a 8+ from day one. Yes. Did I live in fear of Will saves? Yes. Did I ever got Dominated? Yes. Any save spell. Did my dwarven monk in our second campign fear them? No. Did he have saves of 8+ [i]across[/i] the board and great HP from day one? Yes. Did he fear saveless spells. No. Did he learn too? Hell yeah! 'Saveless spells' are some of the most useless spells in most occasions. But they shine when they have their moment. Ice Storm. Does 5d6 dam. Period. Doesn't scale. After the Rogue gets Prot Elements cast on him, all he fears is the 3d6 blunt trauma. Did it still scare the shiznay out of my Rogue 12/Wiz 1 Elf? Yup. Especially when an invisible, hasted, flying mage was casting it twice a round. Zone of Speed. Does it stop 10th levels NPCs? It shouldn't. Does it stop/slow their minions? When I place a handful of them properly, yup. Is it unfair? Bah. That question isn't worth my time. Your assumption it says bad things about my ability to play fair? Well I have nothing nice to say about you either. :rolleyes: TTFN PS: The rest of this note is for the non-JLXC readers. I included mentions of Ice Storm repeatedly as it is a wonderful non-save spell. I in no way condone the dissing of Ice Storm. In fact i encourage its creative use amongst the DMing populace to badger poor rogues into ground. :D [/QUOTE]

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