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Message: <blockquote data-quote="jaer" data-source="post: 4089151" data-attributes="member: 57861">From my reading, the main problem with the idea was presentation.In Derren's example, the idea that a PC ran down an alley and it was a dead-end.  He rolled streetwise check, succeeded, and suddenly knew of a hidden escape route through that alley.  Even if that is what happened in the Sembia run (I don't recall seeing this example, specifically), I don't think this is how most DMs would run it or how 4E would handle it.I do recall someone saying they made a streetwise check and recalled an old sewer system they could use to duck out of the city.  This doesn't mean they found it that round and ducked down it.  It could just mean that they had another option...the front gate which would be gaurded and require more effort to get through or the sewer, which was closer and easier.Now were I running something like this, that check wouldn't count into their successes unless the players decided to head to the sewer.  And now their route through the city would be different, with different options and obstacles than if they were heading to the front gate.The skill check does not necessarily change reality.  One of my players can't simply declare he's tipping over a merchant's cart and roll a strength check to do so if there is no cart there to tip. Yeah, the +2 bonus after succeeding a difficult DC check doesn't always follow logic, but that isn't new to 4e...3e had them in the form of circumstance bonuses/penalties that were dolled out at the DM's whim...no other guideline than that!  Guess what?  These are at a DM's whim, too!In the case of the cart, I would say if the person succeeded a hard DC, they not only tipped the cart over, but sent it spewing it's contents all over the place, making it harder for the guards to dodge by it or jump over it: count the squares around the cart as difficult terrain.None of this is an example in how 4e handles things differently than 3e, it's all in how the DM decides to play the action, and can happen both ways in both editions.  I wouldn't have a PC get a +2 on a diplomacy check after the hard climb check, but it might have been a hard climb check because it was up a particularly high wall from which a couple members of the local thieves guide were hanging out, watching the action, and waiting for a moment to take advantage (perhaps after the guards were gone round the corner, they'd start 'helping' the merchant pick up the spilled goods!).In this case, however, the Rogues wouldn't just appear because the hard check was made.  I'd have planned for them to be there when I designed the encounter, and would allow for a free check to try to get them to help.  Failure does not count against you (they aren't ging to alert the guards to your presence!), but a success would help you.But again, this entire Escape scenario was meant to be a quick and easy module, set up as an example of the difference in skill-use and encounter-design philosophy from 3e to 4e.  It was meant to be relatively simple to learn for both players and DMs.  I think the whole basis is to show a skill-based encounter (which were not highlighted in 3e at all) not a combat-based encounter.  Combat-based encouters have a time limit though - there are only so often players can hit and miss before combat ends one way or the other.A skill-based encounter could go on for hours unless an artificial end-point is placed on it, such as 6 success or 4 fails.  The players could run around in circles, dodging guards the enitre way, making the police force look like fools and never leave the city.As a DM, I can deal with my players doing that (fairly or unfairly as I see fit).  I can set the DCs however I want.  At a convention, the game needs to support some sort of automatic ending so that the DM has a way of fairly ending the scenario (it's in his rules to end it at X time).The 6/4 (Craw Wurm!) set-up in Escape from Sembia was very gamist because the situation (it being played at a convention), not the edition, demands it.  Whether this is a standard rule in 4e, just a suggestion for new DMs, or not even in the books at all, we won't know until the books are out of WotC confirms this.</blockquote>

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