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<blockquote data-quote="Sunseeker" data-source="post: 6567378">Actually, I was only considering player saves enforced upon monsters, not monster saves enforced against players.&nbsp; So a non-dex character has trouble saving on dex-based saves, well I hate to say it but, duh?&nbsp; Also, that's a fairly skewed comparison, as the Ancient Red Dragon is a CR 24, likely to be run in combination with some minions and some Lair effects.&nbsp; Since CR is party level/4.5 (ish), your party of 5 would arguably need to ALL be level 20 to face this dragon.&nbsp; If you don't have some special stuff by level 20, and the DMG provides for past-20 progression as well, then you really shouldn't be fighting an Ancient Red Dragon.The rest of the party should of course, also be able to buff the fighter to make sure he doesn't get wasted.&nbsp; But we're still talking about an Ancient Red Dragon here, arguably one of the highest CRs in the book.&nbsp; I really feel like this is a straw man argument, yes the Ancient Red Dragon is bleeping tough and someone in your party is likely to become a kabob.As for fighting party members, that depends entirely on your group.&nbsp; I have been through a LOT of party conflict in my current group, not between players so much, but between characters and yes at times it has come to blows.&nbsp; That aside, there are numerous AOEs which do not allow the caster to choose targets and in those cases the melee often have to suck eggs.&nbsp; You want proficiency in everything?&nbsp; Houserule it, doesn't bother me at all.&nbsp; Otherwise take the feats.&nbsp; I feel that at a good table, the DM will &quot;spread the love&quot; with effects that target different stats.&nbsp; This is one thing I think was well learned from 4th, because in 3rd yes, it was a serious problem to have low dex because darn near everything required a dex save.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Sunseeker, post: 6567378"] Actually, I was only considering player saves enforced upon monsters, not monster saves enforced against players. So a non-dex character has trouble saving on dex-based saves, well I hate to say it but, duh? Also, that's a fairly skewed comparison, as the Ancient Red Dragon is a CR 24, likely to be run in combination with some minions and some Lair effects. Since CR is party level/4.5 (ish), your party of 5 would arguably need to ALL be level 20 to face this dragon. If you don't have some special stuff by level 20, and the DMG provides for past-20 progression as well, then you really shouldn't be fighting an Ancient Red Dragon. The rest of the party should of course, also be able to buff the fighter to make sure he doesn't get wasted. But we're still talking about an Ancient Red Dragon here, arguably one of the highest CRs in the book. I really feel like this is a straw man argument, yes the Ancient Red Dragon is bleeping tough and someone in your party is likely to become a kabob. As for fighting party members, that depends entirely on your group. I have been through a LOT of party conflict in my current group, not between players so much, but between characters and yes at times it has come to blows. That aside, there are numerous AOEs which [I]do not[/I] allow the caster to choose targets and in those cases the melee often have to suck eggs. You want proficiency in everything? Houserule it, doesn't bother me at all. Otherwise take the feats. I feel that at a good table, the DM will "spread the love" with effects that target different stats. This is one thing I think was well learned from 4th, because in 3rd yes, it was a serious problem to have low dex because darn near everything required a dex save. [/QUOTE]

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