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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 6573534" data-attributes="member: 2067">It's OK for high level character to have a liability. With access to things like Indomitable and Restoration and Freedom of Movement ant whatnot, high-level characters have access to a menagerie of effects that can undo a failed save.The perception is that the saving throw is the only thing that matters here, and that's not accurate. Analyzing DC's in a vacuum gives you a distorted view of how the game plays at the table. For instance:Hold Person is a concentration spell. What the hell is the rest of your party doing, twiddling their thumbs while you're incapacitated?&nbsp; Or are they cool with you &quot;tanking&quot; the Concentration slot for that so that the spellcaster can't concentrate on other shenanigans? Yes, if your 8 WIS warlock happens to get a high-level Hold dropped on them, they won't be able to rescue themselves unless they get very lucky. That's OK. No one delves these dungeons alone. Part of what that does is adding a team dynamic to play - you have to rely on your party members when you get taken out.Yeah, probably not. But what's it gonna add, I wonder? More successful saves, fewer moments of tension, less effective enemy spellcasters....it'll make the game significantly easier for the PC's. Because 5e is a game whose play experience can be so dramatically different from what the ability looks like on paper, I'm suspicious when a change is proposed whose goal is to fix a thing that seems broken. If the intent here is &quot;I want PC's to be more powerful,&quot; I'd say, yeah, this does that perfectly. If the intent here is &quot;I think weak saves at high levels are a design flaw,&quot; I'd say fix it only when and if it becomes a problem in play, and don't sweat it before then.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 6573534, member: 2067"] It's OK for high level character to have a liability. With access to things like Indomitable and Restoration and Freedom of Movement ant whatnot, high-level characters have access to a [I]menagerie[/I] of effects that can undo a failed save. The perception is that the saving throw is the only thing that matters here, and that's not accurate. Analyzing DC's in a vacuum gives you a distorted view of how the game plays at the table. For instance: Hold Person is a [I]concentration[/I] spell. What the hell is the rest of your party doing, twiddling their thumbs while you're incapacitated? Or are they cool with you "tanking" the Concentration slot for that so that the spellcaster can't concentrate on other shenanigans? Yes, if your 8 WIS warlock happens to get a high-level [I]Hold[/I] dropped on them, they won't be able to rescue themselves unless they get very lucky. That's OK. No one delves these dungeons alone. Part of what that does is adding a team dynamic to play - you have to rely on your party members when you get taken out. Yeah, probably not. But what's it gonna add, I wonder? More successful saves, fewer moments of tension, less effective enemy spellcasters....it'll make the game significantly easier for the PC's. Because 5e is a game whose play experience can be so dramatically different from what the ability looks like on paper, I'm suspicious when a change is proposed whose goal is to fix a thing that [I]seems[/I] broken. If the intent here is "I want PC's to be more powerful," I'd say, yeah, this does that perfectly. If the intent here is "I think weak saves at high levels are a design flaw," I'd say fix it only when and if it becomes a problem in play, and don't sweat it before then. [/QUOTE]

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