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Message: <blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 6574091" data-attributes="member: 2067">None of those things depend on a single roll.Okay, but it wasn't a very good example because in practice, it doesn't snowball, thanks to making a saving throw not being the exclusive determiner of success or failure. Not in spell mechanics. 5e's dominate spells, for instance, are TREMENDOUSLY more easy to counteract than 2e's or 1e's or OD&D's (while remaining evocative of what those spells could do):2e Domination: As a 5th-level spell, make one save at -2 (adjusted for Wisdom) or be dominated forever. Get a new save with a bonus if "forced to take an action against your nature." A "typical 2e fighter" of ~10th level (when the casters get this ability) needs a 13 or better to make that initial save. Basically: if you fail this save, you are an NPC's puppet forever. 5e Domination: As a 5th-level concentration spell against humanoids, make a Wis save or be charmed (with advantage if combat is going on). Caster can give you general directions that you can interpret, or can spend their action to take precise control. If you take damage, you make a new save. The "worst case scenario" circa 10th level is a Wis save at -1 vs. a DC 16 (17+ succeeds). If this was going up against a champion fighter, they'd have indomitable. Our low-WIS Fighter is probably going to get hit in 5e (even with Indomitable), barring some significant luck. But the effects once hit are remarkably different, and 5e-domination is much, much easier to get out of, and even limits the caster while they're doing it.I mean, a +6 bonus is significant. Folks will make most of their saves, even the ones they "suck at". The only question is if you're cool with that. It doesn't appeal to me much, since I like a game where things like not giving the McGuffin to Greg the Wis 8 Wonder-Warrior is a choice with significant meaning and finding out that the BBEG can dominate people is important intel and the vagaries of chance might hose you on an adventure. I like that a LOT MORE than a game where the PC's basically steamroll through stuff because they're free to ignore their dumpstat. Failing because you rolled an 11 or even a 16 -- when you deliberately chose to play a character with this weakness -- is something I'd expect. You should fail a lot when someone hits you where you're weak. That's part of what makes interesting choices and consequences. You rely on the rest of the party to help you out in the areas where you're not as strong. That's also what I'd expect from a game that features teamwork.</blockquote>

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