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Message: <blockquote data-quote="buzzard" data-source="post: 1128146" data-attributes="member: 3003">Yes you do. However this does not change the fact that the .22, in a single shot, knocked you down and unconscious. That is the fundamental problem. Talks with EMTs, reading many discussions on gun newsgroups, reading many books about firearms and self defense, and a variety of other works on the subject. Noone in their right mind will count on small caliber handgun for self defense because the odds of a one shot stop are pathetic. Yes it would because :A) Most of the instances will be multiple shots.B) People die from things like internal bleeding after some time, which is not simulated in D20. An EMT one told me a story that he actually found .22s to be fairly lethal in a slow sort of way. They often tended to bounce around in the rib cage causing lots of internal bleeding. Thus if you don't get immediate medical attention you could die. However these were not instances where the target was immediately incapacitated. You need more information than the % of handgun fatalities for this to be useful information. You need % of fatalities per shot. Light caliber weapons tend to be the most common since they are the cheapest, and most concealable. If 10000 people are shot with .22s, 100 with 9mms, and 50 with .45s, the fact that many of the fatalities are from .22s is rather usuprising (and uninformative). Ok, so you are convinced that the lethality of .22s isn't what you are talking about. Then I guess I have no idea what you are talking about since you are being unclear and/or slippery. Again (funny how that keeps cropping up), within the scope of a 1 minute death, a .22 is not at all likely to be lethal in a single shot. The D20 Modern rules do not reflect this. Do I need to draw pictograms or something? OK, you read my post and didn't understand a bloody thing. The shot in question was a lung shot. That is not a "1" on a D20. That is a potentially fatal wound. However since D20 cannot simulate wounds which take a while to kill you, a major source of low caliber fatalities have been excluded. We are inherently limited to cases in which people drop and/or die immediately to have a weapon which is potentially lethal. Maybe I'll try to find an artist somewhere...Are you being deliberately dense? First you are arguing that low caliber rounds have to be more deadly to be realistic. Now you are arguing that people will live through them. Choose one, since you ought to realize they are mutually exclusive. By D20 rules there is only one fatality condition for damage from a weapon. You get dropped to below 0 HP, either immediately to -10 and die right out, or bleed out over the course of about a minute. Thus any weapon which can kill you in a single shot, within the scope of these rules, must be able to drop a person and they must bleed out. From my experience in reading sources on the topic and speaking with those who have first hand knowledge, .22s will not do that in any but the rarest circumstances (heart shot or lucky shot which pierces the skull). Thus, within the scope of D20 rules they should not be able to kill people (other than coupe de grace -which is the mafiosi bullet in the back of the head).However D20 Modern, as I have said, will have a .22 dropping people 1 in 9 times. That is quite unrealistic. buzzard</blockquote>

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