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Message: <blockquote data-quote="buzzard" data-source="post: 1128466" data-attributes="member: 3003">Ahh yes, I'll get started on that criminology thesis right away to provide you with your stats. The accepted consensus among gun folk is that small caliber weapons will not drop people but in rare circumstances. If you decide that that consensus is not sufficient for you, well fine. It works for me. You are probably not going to find any sort of detailed study which will prove or disprove my point. Again you use that word. I don't think it means what you think it means. For the umpteenth time, to be one shot lethal in D20, you have to drop someone. They must be rendered unconscious in one shot. That is undisputable as the rules go. The fact that a .22 is very unlikely to do such a thing is my premise. If a .22 cannot drop someone, then by virtue of the rules as constructed, they cannot be lethal in one shot. By D20 modern rules, a .22LR is 11% at one shot stops. I consider that to be quite high. Sniping could be considered quite different considering you have time for perfect shot placement (which is central to the immediate drop of the target). With a rifle, and a couple of feats doing a bunch of damage with a .22LR is quite doable in Spycraft. However, I have been reviewing the press stuff on the case. Yes, they do say it is a 22 caliber bullet, but they don't say anything else about it. The diameter of the bullet doesn't tell me very much. It could be anything from a .22 short to a 220 swift. We are talking at least a order of magnitude of variance in muzzle energy here. If they even gave an idea of what bullet weight was, I could assume the type of cartridge in question, but all they mention is bullet fragmets (which IMHO implies a higher velocity than .22LR, which is what we have been discussing). I have made no such claim, or even approximated it. I have repeatedly stated that a .22lr (which are the .22s fired out of pistols) will have to drop someone unconscious(-1) to do what you describe- ie. be lethal. Actually by D20 rules, once you stabilize, you live through it. However, we will avoid this argument. OK, so you want numbers that are not compiled (AKAIK), and I have to provide them to disprove your assertion that Spycraft is not deadly enough. Last time I checked, in debates, burden of proof lies on the first assertion. I am satisfied with the sources I am acquainted with. If you are not, dig up your own. Find me a source that shows lethality of single shots by calibers of .32 ACP, .25ACP and .22 LR. Have fun. I still believe based on the information that I have seen that Spycraft does an adequate job of simulating firearm damage within the limitations of D20. The experience of the gun community (see In the Gravest Extreme, by Mosaad Ayoob for one cite) backs me up. D20 modern does what I consider a poor job in their firearms rules. I have already ranted about this elsewhere however (D20 OGL forum). buzzard</blockquote>

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