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Message: <blockquote data-quote="buzzard" data-source="post: 1128704" data-attributes="member: 3003">I chose those numbers based on the discrete probabilities which are derived from D20 rolls. As I have said, I don't have studies which make numerical claims. However my experience leads me to believe that 2 or 5% are too high for a one shot unconsciousness from a .22LR  shot. In any case, for D20 Modern, which is th cause the champion, the number is 11%, which seems extremely high. I explained by I used any numbers at all when I used the numbers. It has to do with D20 mechanics. You are oblivious to most everything I have said. You have stated that:A) Spycraft small caliber weapons are not lethal enoughB) D20 Modern is more "realistic" because small caliber weapons in that game are potentially lethalI have explained repeatedly, to a complete lack of a response on your part (other than gibberish about strawmen), that D20 mechanics have a discrete means by which a weapon is lethal. The calibers in question should not be able to meet those requirements(IMHO, of course, but that 'O' is predicated on some amount of collected knowledge).That is how the rules work. You want .22s to be lethal in the scope of D20 rules, so that is how they HAVE to work. There can be no bleeding out, or slow death. It must be immediate for it to be within the scope of the rules (immediate being defined by 1 minute). A reviewer of your proclaimed stature ought to know the rules right?You call me on strawmen as a means of avoiding my arguments that prove that your premise is fallacious. Again obliviousness. You claimed that D20 modern is better- more realistic. You like the numbers which can be derived from that rule set. Thus, you do have a premise which can be numerically derived. You are doing your utmost to be slippery and avoid any position by claiming strawmen and whatnot, but you still have staked a position. If you wish to claim that D20 modern is innacurate, then OK. You are merely making nebulous claims, and thus arguing with you is disingenuous. Did you miss the aspect of D20 where most everything is handled cinematically? Do you wish to actually have a claim that D20 is granular enough to make a good model for reality? Are you making a case that D20 modern isn't cinematic?I stated in my initial post, before you decided to argue with me, that D20 is not granular enough to simulate real firearms issues. I then said, that within the constraints of said system Spycraft is good (certainly better than D20 Modern). I stand by that claim. Within that claim would be the fact that small calibers, which often kill slowly, cannot be lethal in one shot in D20 rules and reflect most gunshot wounds. I have said again and again to deaf ears that at best you can model reality, assuming the constraints of D20, to only a certain degree. That degree is that only heavier caliber handguns can kill in a single shot (to be more specific, knock below 0 wound or hp). It is a native fixture of the model. You don't seem to care about this. In fact you are deliberately oblivious to my points on the subject. You also show a limited understanding of Spycraft rules. If a squad of minions open fire on you, and they hit (which is rather an important distinction of course, but one independant of Spycraft since in D20 defense is all about the same), you will go down, depending on your level. I am assuming first level since that is more appropriate to discussion of weapon lethality. If someone holds a gun to your head, there are rules for that situation. It is akin to a coup de grace in D&D. You don't need action dice to resolve that being lethal. Spycraft is not quite the flight of fancy you attribute it to being. buzzard</blockquote>

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