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Any RPG systems have good Firearms rules and feel ?
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<blockquote data-quote="buzzard" data-source="post: 1130131" data-attributes="member: 3003"><p>Using an extreme case does not usually favor any modelling system. However, the fact that the game is cinematic at 20th level has no bearing on the effectiveness of weapons. That is an extreme case. Killing off 20th level characters in not a place to base arguments on the lethality of calibers. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Umm, you say you're an engineer right? Here, do the math, I have a squad of mooks (say twenty hit, I want to keep your math simple). They all fire .22LR pistols at 20th level DC Modern hero. We'll be generous and assume at least one that got the twenty actually is going to confirm it. Well his average damage is 5. He doubles that for a 10. The 20th level character probably has a con above 10, so he doesn't have to save. There went your argument. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>As I expected you don't care what I argue. See the previous exercise, your D20 Modern will be no better since the .22 can't kill the 20th level guy anyway. </p><p></p><p>However, I don't argue that the systems aren't cinematic. I'm arguing about how the guns work within the systems. You don't seem to care about that. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You are impervious to reason. </p><p>I have said that within the constraints of the model, you can be as realistic as possible. Let me put this in my solidification modelling terms. I'm casting my block. I know I'm not using fluid flow calculations, but I can take a plot of convective heat transfer caused by fluid flow at certain temperatures, and come up with a good equation to give me values at certain temperature ranges. While I am not completely doing the heat transfer from convection justice, I am being as realistic as possible within the constraints of my model. </p><p></p><p>If you make a system which becomes cinematic for high level characters, this does not preclude low level, and non characters from being treated somewhat realistically when the 'gods' are out of the picture. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>At low levels, the system does not happen to be all that cinematic. In fact, you can almost ignore those effects at the low end. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You also make statements about how things are not possible, yet they are. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Actually you need to learn how to read. I said "akin to coupe de grace" because I didn't have a rulebook handy so I could look up the proper term. Thanks for looking it up. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>True/False: can you kill someone in Spycraft with a gun against the back of their head?</p><p>True. </p><p>You can argue all you like about requirements, but it is possible.</p><p>How often do you have a case where people don't get to react when someone has a gun against their head? The action dice could be the cost of setting up such a situation. If the target is unable to react, well we are back to coupe de grace. You've made no point here. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Pot, Kettle, black. I've been trying to drag you back to the matter at hand for any number of posts. I keep hearing claims of strawman and ad hominem. How about you debate my points instead?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, it is not all that different. Playability is very akin to usability of a model. For casting my block, I didn't want to worry about everything. I just wanted to worry about what was necessary to get the job done. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Which are also based on reality. Thus, at the root, it has to be a simulation of reality. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Of course I could be a nitpicky sort as ask for your 99% source, but I'm going to let you claim it as knowledge (unlike my knowledge of firearms). </p><p></p><p>That is your opinion. The degree of added complexity is pretty small. "Oh no, I have to remember that my weapon does 1d10+1!! Woe is me!!". Feh. For people who do actually shoot, and know about firearms, the level of detail is desirable. Though, in Spycraft it is easy enough to not buy the Modern Equipment Guide and leave much of the detail behind. The SEH has much simpler firearms details. I favor MEG, but I'm a 'gun nut'. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Now you're telling me about what goes beyond the level of the simulation? That's a riot. Wow, you are actually getting into the simulation discussion now. However how can an argument about the lethality of calibers not lead into a discussion of "classic weapon arguments"? We're not talking about tiddly winks. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'll be so broken up if you stop avoiding adressing my points. </p><p></p><p>buzzard</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="buzzard, post: 1130131, member: 3003"] Using an extreme case does not usually favor any modelling system. However, the fact that the game is cinematic at 20th level has no bearing on the effectiveness of weapons. That is an extreme case. Killing off 20th level characters in not a place to base arguments on the lethality of calibers. Umm, you say you're an engineer right? Here, do the math, I have a squad of mooks (say twenty hit, I want to keep your math simple). They all fire .22LR pistols at 20th level DC Modern hero. We'll be generous and assume at least one that got the twenty actually is going to confirm it. Well his average damage is 5. He doubles that for a 10. The 20th level character probably has a con above 10, so he doesn't have to save. There went your argument. As I expected you don't care what I argue. See the previous exercise, your D20 Modern will be no better since the .22 can't kill the 20th level guy anyway. However, I don't argue that the systems aren't cinematic. I'm arguing about how the guns work within the systems. You don't seem to care about that. You are impervious to reason. I have said that within the constraints of the model, you can be as realistic as possible. Let me put this in my solidification modelling terms. I'm casting my block. I know I'm not using fluid flow calculations, but I can take a plot of convective heat transfer caused by fluid flow at certain temperatures, and come up with a good equation to give me values at certain temperature ranges. While I am not completely doing the heat transfer from convection justice, I am being as realistic as possible within the constraints of my model. If you make a system which becomes cinematic for high level characters, this does not preclude low level, and non characters from being treated somewhat realistically when the 'gods' are out of the picture. At low levels, the system does not happen to be all that cinematic. In fact, you can almost ignore those effects at the low end. You also make statements about how things are not possible, yet they are. Actually you need to learn how to read. I said "akin to coupe de grace" because I didn't have a rulebook handy so I could look up the proper term. Thanks for looking it up. True/False: can you kill someone in Spycraft with a gun against the back of their head? True. You can argue all you like about requirements, but it is possible. How often do you have a case where people don't get to react when someone has a gun against their head? The action dice could be the cost of setting up such a situation. If the target is unable to react, well we are back to coupe de grace. You've made no point here. Pot, Kettle, black. I've been trying to drag you back to the matter at hand for any number of posts. I keep hearing claims of strawman and ad hominem. How about you debate my points instead? No, it is not all that different. Playability is very akin to usability of a model. For casting my block, I didn't want to worry about everything. I just wanted to worry about what was necessary to get the job done. Which are also based on reality. Thus, at the root, it has to be a simulation of reality. Of course I could be a nitpicky sort as ask for your 99% source, but I'm going to let you claim it as knowledge (unlike my knowledge of firearms). That is your opinion. The degree of added complexity is pretty small. "Oh no, I have to remember that my weapon does 1d10+1!! Woe is me!!". Feh. For people who do actually shoot, and know about firearms, the level of detail is desirable. Though, in Spycraft it is easy enough to not buy the Modern Equipment Guide and leave much of the detail behind. The SEH has much simpler firearms details. I favor MEG, but I'm a 'gun nut'. Now you're telling me about what goes beyond the level of the simulation? That's a riot. Wow, you are actually getting into the simulation discussion now. However how can an argument about the lethality of calibers not lead into a discussion of "classic weapon arguments"? We're not talking about tiddly winks. I'll be so broken up if you stop avoiding adressing my points. buzzard [/QUOTE]
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