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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6208297" data-attributes="member: 4937">If you've been around EnWorld at all, you should be familiar with the derision with which I hold purely improvisational DMing.&nbsp; If you are saying it is impossible for a DM that is engaged in improvisation to be perfectly fair, then I agree with you - though I would extend that to every feature of the game world from whether a trap exists on the door to how many monsters arrive as reinforcements.&nbsp;&nbsp; There is nothing special about a social challenge in this sense.&nbsp;&nbsp; We could equally complain that the DC to do anything depends on the DM's mood and whim if he doesn't hold himself to a design.&nbsp;&nbsp; Secret doors that come into being when an NPC needs an escape route similarly can't be planned for by the PC's.&nbsp; Magical defenses that only come into being when the PC's reveal a particular plan of action to the DM are a similar problem.To the extent that this is true, it is true of any 'fog of war' type situation and not social interactions only.&nbsp; Yes, I know many gamers get frustrated when they can't make choices based on perfect and reliable information - they are the sort that in 1e felt it cheating by the DM to not identify the monster by its monster manual entry or to use a stat block other than the official one in the monster manual.&nbsp; I don't necessarily have a problem with that.&nbsp; But I will say that the PC's might not always know what tension is present and important any more than they would know enough to choose between the left fork and right fork in a dungeon. In general I agree with you.&nbsp;&nbsp; In practice however, a certain amount of 'type 2' occurs whenever the DM improvises - whether it's a map of the social interactions or a map of the dungeon - and since no DM can perfectly prepare up front for everything, a certain amount of improvisation always occurs.&nbsp;&nbsp; However, it's something the DM should attempt to minimize, and in general the DM should endeavor to be generous toward player proposals rather than playing a game of 'gotcha'.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6208297, member: 4937"] If you've been around EnWorld at all, you should be familiar with the derision with which I hold purely improvisational DMing. If you are saying it is impossible for a DM that is engaged in improvisation to be perfectly fair, then I agree with you - though I would extend that to every feature of the game world from whether a trap exists on the door to how many monsters arrive as reinforcements. There is nothing special about a social challenge in this sense. We could equally complain that the DC to do anything depends on the DM's mood and whim if he doesn't hold himself to a design. Secret doors that come into being when an NPC needs an escape route similarly can't be planned for by the PC's. Magical defenses that only come into being when the PC's reveal a particular plan of action to the DM are a similar problem. To the extent that this is true, it is true of any 'fog of war' type situation and not social interactions only. Yes, I know many gamers get frustrated when they can't make choices based on perfect and reliable information - they are the sort that in 1e felt it cheating by the DM to not identify the monster by its monster manual entry or to use a stat block other than the official one in the monster manual. I don't necessarily have a problem with that. But I will say that the PC's might not always know what tension is present and important any more than they would know enough to choose between the left fork and right fork in a dungeon. In general I agree with you. In practice however, a certain amount of 'type 2' occurs whenever the DM improvises - whether it's a map of the social interactions or a map of the dungeon - and since no DM can perfectly prepare up front for everything, a certain amount of improvisation always occurs. However, it's something the DM should attempt to minimize, and in general the DM should endeavor to be generous toward player proposals rather than playing a game of 'gotcha'. [/QUOTE]

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