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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6209008" data-attributes="member: 4937">Good post ThirdWizard.  The whole thing is worth reading.Ok, you've established a very key point, which is one of the ways that physical and mental skills in the game are similar to each other in depending on the fiction.  In that sense, I've agreed from the start of this thread that you can't simply say, "I use diplomacy to get past the obstacle."  You have to engage in and with the fiction of the world.  If a player does say, "I want to use savoire faire to get past the obstacle.", the DM is in his rights to say, "Yes, but what do you say." because the player is engaged not in the fiction but with the rules.  And even as a rules proposition, "I use combat to defeat my opponent." is only a vague declaration of intention, and not an actual action.But while I agree that in this sense the mental and physical traits of a character are similar, there is another sense in which they are very dissimilar and its also pointed out by your examination of the interaction between rules and fiction.  Suppose my character has within the fiction the trait of being 'strong' - however the rules implement this trait.  There is nothing I need do as a player to create this trait within the fiction.  He's either strong or he isn't.   If I am strong in real life, my ability to bench press 400lb doesn't add to the fiction of the character's strength.  If I am not strong in real life, my inability to brench press 400lb doesn't subtract from the character ability to lift things and shove people around.   The character's capabilities are completely separate in that regard from the player's abilities.But, in PnP games player character's are avatars of their players.  Regardless of whether you play pawn stance or actor stance or author stance or anything else, the character's choices and actions are based on your decisions as a player.  Now suppose you state that your character has within the fiction the trait of 'makes good choices'.  Like 'extraordinarily strong', this is a common trait of protagonists in heroic fiction.  Does it follow that it is as easy to create in the fiction the trait of 'makes good choices' as it is the trait of 'extraordinarily strong'?   No, because regardless of the skill being used or the system being used, engaging with the fiction requires making choices and the player can still make bad choices.   Having mental skills might make the character more perceptive and knowing, and the DM might be able to convey that additional knowledge to the player, but unless the player is capable of putting that knowledge together, coming to the right conclusion, and making a good decision based on that knowledge no amount of on paper skills will realize the fiction of a character that makes good choices if the player doesn't.  In this sense, any trait that depends on the character's mental ability differs in character from traits based on the character's physical ability because unlike the player's body, the player's mind intrudes into the fiction.   After all, the fiction is occurring inside the player's mind.  The character isn't external to the player's mind, and can't act independently of their choices.So while a trait like 'smashes things' doesn't require a player actually skilled at smashing things to the extent that a quadriplegic or an invalid player is perfectly good at smashing things, 'negotiates peaceful settlements between ancient enemies' or 'quickly produces brilliant tactical plans' does require the player to have some minimum amount of mental capacity.   I mean, if mental ability didn't matter at all, then surely six year olds could successfully play characters whose actions, maturity, and cunning matched those of adult players in every way?   Or four year olds.   Or two year olds.   There are ways to say, "Your own strength, speed, and health don't matter to the game."  You can't really also say, "Your own wisdom, understanding, knowledge, and planning ability don't matter to the game."   The player's body isn't in the game, but their mind is.</blockquote>

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