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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Victim" data-source="post: 165897" data-attributes="member: 78">Yes, item creation feats really suck when the DM rolls the treasure randomly.  After all, you have to keep any useful items away from the characters.  Without item creation feats, most of the characters would still be relying on the fear we entered the game with.  Why should people go "Ohhhhhh, a magic whatzimajig!" when they can probably duplicate its effects with long lasting spells like Bull's Strength or Greater magic Weapon?  Why isn't spending a week in prayer to one's god, while making massive sacrifices, so that a Holy weapon can be forged what can defeat X creature more bland than picking one up off some dead guy?  I think it's much cooler to enchant and upgrade your items than to switch out everytime you kill someone and they have something nice, or if some self important NPC gives you stuff as gift.  In theory, a character can use the same weapon from the 1st moment he finds or makes a masterwork weapon until the day he die for good or retires.  If the DM allows you start with a masterwork weapon, or spend some gold to add masterworking to an existing one, then a character could use the same weapon - like a family heirloom - from first level to 20th or even beyond.  If you want players to be impressed by a magic item, make it one that would be too expensive for them to create easily, or one that they don't have the spells or feats to make.  If you don't want the players to make items, then limit TIME and GOLD.  Without both of those factors, item creation either goes nowhere, or is limited mostly to low level potions and scrolls.  It's hard to make stuff when broke and under near constant attack.Of course existing CRs factor in magic items.  Run a fight between a fully equiped 13th level party and a beholder 3 times, and then run it without items.  Without the magically boosted saves, the fatalities will probably be much higher on the "naked" heroes.  With the boosted saves, and more powerful attacks, etc, the beholder might get toasted easily.  Granted CRs could be adjusted so that the base is no magic, or less magic.  However, I think that a certain level of magic is needed for balance between classes.  At high levels, most foes can fly and turn invisible.  If your swordsmaster can't do the same via items, he's just a spectator until someone takes pity on him.  By that point, it may be too late.EDIT:  When playing a cleric, I always viewed item creation cost as a sacrifice to the character's god.  If the cleric knows how to channel divine power into the item (the feat), makes the sacrifices, and prays, then the diety empowers the item through the priest.Wizards are trickier, but perhaps each spell includes instructions for making items in the spell book.  After all, all those pages have to get filled up somehow.</blockquote>

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