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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Henry" data-source="post: 2404014" data-attributes="member: 158">A few points to make:For Shadowslayer:-Der Kluge to my knowledge not only HAS played the unmodified game (and lost a low-level wizard to an overly powerful fireball) but he IS playing a modified game right now with Scadgrad (also active over on the C&C forums). He's not reviewing blindly.For Der Kluge:It's a good review, but there were a few things I don't think you addressed. The Spells, for instance, nor the advantage of playing a more cutthroat game than 3E can allow are two things. In 3E, you are discouraged from being a very challenging DM due to the amount of time involved in character generation, ESPECIALLY over 4th or 5th level. If a 6th level character dies, chances are the player won't be re-entering the game that day, and if so it will only be towards the end of the session. This acts to subtly persuade the DM to make real challenges with less fervor, and soft-ball the play experience. If he doesn't soft-ball the play experience, then he risks alienating players, and thus that particular DM style is dissuaded. Some see it as a bad thing, some don't.For the spells, they are much simpler, but they do lack in some areas, it's true. In fact, the editing in the spell overview tables is (sorry, Troll friends) some of the WORST I've seen in a gaming product. In the second printings, this needs to be addressed ASAP.The ability mods you mentioned were done this way intentionally, and it's not because +4 is a high bonus, it's because the average bonus range (from 13 to 16) tends to inflate the amount of bonuses a character gets in combat. Whereas the average high score on most PCs in 4d6 drop lowest is 12 to 15, it makes a +3 or +4 bonus truly exceptional, whereas in most cases of point buy or rolling, scores of +3 and +4 or even  +5 can be more common, which begins the power inflation that C&C wants to curtail. You'll even notice that, whereas in d20 most class abilities are functions of level (cleric turning, barbarian rage, barbarian DR etc.) many or most of C&C's abilities are one-time bonuses, or improve much slower than an equivalent d20 bonus and are not linked to ability scores. The goal is to set power progression so that at high levels, bonuses are JUST reaching the low teens, more in keeping with older editions of D&D.For the system of Primes, while it doesn't have the same gradation, and yes, you will get odd circumstances in some cases (like primes being more overriding than level bonuses to skills at low level) it's still a simplified system that does work well in play to keep things moving without obsolute DM fiat. One thing to notice is that, as levels increase, primes become less important. Even moreso, it allows someone with a strong concept from the beginning to at least indulge in that concept at low level (cf. the silver-tongued rogue, the dexterous fighter, etc. - and yes, I recall your Dexterous Fighter frustrations <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />) However, as level increases, class abilities take the fore - if someone wanted "silver-tonguedness" to be their forte, then Bard or Knight is the better choice.I do agree with your summation: C&C is not for everyone, especially players who want detailed levels of customization with their characters that are woven deeply into the rules. The DM who does not like hours and hours of prep work, however, would find C&C to be a good tool, but if he has players who prefer massive detail, he WILL have to work with them to make them feel more comfortable in the game.</blockquote>

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