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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Thanee" data-source="post: 1771468" data-attributes="member: 478">Restating a few things for completeness sake, dunno if you had seen them. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />That's what Scion also said a few times. But (except for some spells in the 5th-6th level range) I'm not so sure about that. In comparison to the Energy powers, yeah, but in general they are pretty good IME. But that's not really important, either, as the arcanists are stuck with their spells so they have to use what they get, unless they make a huge errata to the PHB someday to get even with the XPH. Maybe 4th edition will do that? Who knows...Yep, unless you count damage done to a single target with no energy resistances over the course of a whole day worth of spells. There the sorcerer will be ahead as Sorren explained, but his premise, that damage dealt to a single target is the only common ground between the classes is rather faulty (should be pretty obvious that you can easily compare them in other ways, too).Hehe, yep. I think I had used a similar analogy in the past to explain why the low level slots the sorcerer has after the psion is spent aren't that hot (while they are not bad, but they simply are no major or significant amount of power left). Or that racking up damage dealt over the course of a day (given enough encounters) is not very meaningful, since we all know that at higher levels spellcasting (as manifesting) is more powerful than melee, because of the many options it grants.Also, the Mystic Theurge (unless you go for really high levels, where they have two classes with high level spells and where the Mystic Theurge becomes powerful for exactly that reason (the sorcerer has no extra high level spells, only low level)) shows quite nicely how a huge amount of low level spells does not make up for the lack of high level spells in a pure spellcasting class. So, while the sorcerer at least has high level spells, the higher amount of high level manifestations the psion has IMHO is a bigger advantage than the (even) higher amount of low level spells the sorcerer gets. You generally need to cast two or three low level spells to have the same effect of a single high level spell, unless the situation is very good for that specific low level spell (i.e. Magic Missile and incorporeals).Here's the picture again, which does figure in spell/power level, not only caster/manifester level (as Sorren's comparison or any comparison that purely looks for single target damage does).<img src="http://www.enworld.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=16124" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="" />The psion's strategy is 100% aggressive here, their flexibility (and the presence of plenty very good powers, which do not need to be augmented to have their full effect, if you figure in those alone the blue area widens by 20% or so (rough guesstimate)) allows them to stretch out their power a lot more than that.Yeah, but how about the psion? The list shrinks down quite a bit then...Astral Construct (discipline power)Metamorphosis and with the quite broken Metamorphic Transfer feat, they have some of the power of Shapechange at 7th (or 9th and the cost of a feat - not to forget the restrictions with disciplines here) level already (i.e. the extra action from Choker, for up to 21 minutes per day at that level). With Overchannel they can also access higher HD forms faster.True enough. Especially Time Stop is quite some power to behold. Haste is very good, but with boots of speed the fighters have that power available as well. And at least I never bothered to learn Haste with a sorcerer (except in 3.0, where it was a no-brainer choice and easily the single most powerful spell in the arcanists repertoire), since there are so many good 3rd level spells out there. :\Don't think the psion's defenses really lack behind (while the sorcerer's do, because the number of spells known is smaller). How about Freedom of Movement or Personal Mind Blank, those are some really powerful defensive spells there, which the arcanists do not have (they have others, Mirror Image for example is also very powerful in the right situation).The bigger advantage of the arcanists here is that they do not have the same restrictions as psions with their discipline lists (tho, the bonus feats make up for this to a degree).In comparison to the wizard I agree, that they have quite a few more spells known (tho, not to forget that this costs the wizard a huge amount of resources to get there), but as I have already explained in another thread, the psion's effective* spells known rack up quite good (the wizard still has twice as many spells known (or even more, depending on how much resources the spent, which the psion does not have to).And wizards do not get spontaneous casting and have fewer spells per day as a sorcerer (which was compared in the spellcasting power department).Spontaneous casting/manifesting is a very powerful ability! I dare to say it is - after the ability to cast spells or manifest powers itself - the single most powerful spellcasing/manifesting-related ability!Wizards can access their whole spell knowledge by leaving slots open, but that reduces their amount of preparation, since they have even fewer slots then and need to divide them up, while the spontaneous casters have full access to their (limited) knowledge with just a single slot (or some PP) still! A single power - Psychic Reformation - gives the psion (with a low XP expenditure) potential access to the WHOLE XPH worth of psionic powers in a similar time (10-15 minutes) (plus swapping around feats and skills as needed, even the 50 XP for the last level can achieve a lot of stuff). And 50 XP - even if you do that once per evening - won't affect you much.Not to mention, that compared to the spontaneous casting sorcerer, who is (if you count the whole day worth of slots) only slightly ahead in spellcasting power as we have seen in various examples by now, the psion has many more effective* spells known, which is the single most restrictive disadvantage of the sorcerer!Here's the spells known versus powers known chart again (for 10th level, and added in 11th level). The +'s are to show that augmented lower level powers can be used in place of higher level powers, these numbers naturally increase for every additional power level. It should demonstrate that the psion's selection of powers will have a lot more potential power than the sorcerer's (and this does not yet figure in the effective* spell equivalents!).Spell/Power Level | Sorcerer Spells Known | Psion Powers Known10th level0th | 9 | - (1 - Detect Psionics)1st | 5 | 5 (4)2nd | 4 | 4+3rd | 3 | 4++4th | 2 | 4+++5th | 1 | 4++++11th level0th | 9 | - (1 - Detect Psionics)1st | 5 | 5 (4)2nd | 5 | 4+3rd | 4 | 4++4th | 3 | 4+++5th | 2 | 4++++6th | 0 | 1+++++* With effective spells known I mean how many spells you need to cover the significant portion of the powers known (i.e. Astral Construct includes 9 spells, tho you won't learn all 9, but it's at least worth 3 or 4 of them, the Energy powers easily live up to that number, too, Dominate includes 2 versions, as does Dispel or Suggestion, and so on). So you cannot just add up powers and compare to spells one-by-one, since a single powers is more knowledge than a single spell in many cases (not all, Detect Psionics, Fly, Dimension Door or Metamorphosis are just the same as one spell).ByeThanee</blockquote>

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