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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Thanee" data-source="post: 1773648" data-attributes="member: 478">Just a few comments... EDIT: ok, maybe a bit more than that... <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />     Note, that I didn't say you observation is wrong, I just havn't noticed the same thing in our games. Spells like Horrid Wilting (for pretty high level damage dealing) are... well... horrid! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> At least when they were used against us. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />    And not all opponents have high hit points, really.    Tho, what it boils down to I certainly agree with, that disabling spells are better than damaging spells at higher levels.     Just think it's incomplete.     Not after they have been used up. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> That's the only situation I was talking about when comparing with the Mystic Theurge. That is after the sorcerer has used up a good portion of their spells to make about the same impact that the psion did (with fewer more powerful manifestations).   The MT example IMHO shows, that the low level spells, which are what the sorcerer mostly has left, are not so hot compared to the lack of high level power, tho, that lack is not as high as with the MT (since the sorcerer has high level spells). That's all.     See, that is exactly what I mean, when I say comparing damage isn't showing the whole picture.   You can do A LOT more with those spell slots or their equivalent in PP than just deal damage. That's why I usually speak of effects rather than damage. That could be anything from a Dimension Door, an Energy Ball to a Dominate. All those are powerful effects, which you cannot recreate with low level slots.    Damage just isn't everything.     That, and after he is burnt out, the sorcerer keeps up to the total with the remaining spells, so the total is roughly equal, but the psion has the advantage of being able to shell out more in a shorter amount of time (if he chooses to, which he does not have to).    Even if you always switch back, this is a cost, which I would gladly pay. Heck I use Limited Wish all the time, when I have it. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />   And psions get "Limited Wish", too (8th level, tho). I think Psychic Reformation greatly sidesteps their restrictions (which are already much smaller than the sorcerer's (but not the wizard's of course)) in terms of Powers Known.    That's the problem, they do only keep up after having spent the remainder of their spells. They are not so close (unless you count optimum circumstances for the sorcerer, which the psion does not need thanks to changing energy types and whatnot) at the point the psion is spent (and the sorcerer has spells left).   That's what I try to show with the picture, if you move one level up and go away from pure damage, it is much better to see, as pure damage comparisons are a bit deceptive.    I'd even dareI think you need to check the Astral Constructs again. While they lack the spellcasting ability, some summoned creatures have, they are a lot more powerful in combat. Different focus, but the power level isn't lower for sure.    That's all I'm saying. That the Energy powers are better than compareable spells one-by-one. Whether that is a good or bad thing, is not relevant. What is relevant, that the sorcerer/wizard needs to learn more spells to achieve the same amount of knowledge.    In what way? Only thing that it lacks is counterspelling I think, but that's certainly more than balanced by the fact, that powers cannot be counterspelled at all.    But "much worse"!?    It has a lower effective cost eventually (10 PP which is not the equivalent of a 20th CL 6th level spell, it's even less than the equivalent of a 11th CL 6th level spell), and includes several versions between Dispel and Greater Dispel.    Ok, that's the advantages, now where are the disadvantages?     *blink*    I'd really like to see how you come to that conclusion. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />      The ability to do it, sure. The cost to apply it is not (but neither is it for the metamagic).     Well, plenty people (just take a look at those threads that talk about sorcerer feat selection) say Heighten is very good for sorcerers. And a higher save DC is very good, regardless of how you put it.     Yeah. Just that the first some is not the same as the other some. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />    Spontaneous Manifesting anyone?    Not in 3.5 until maybe Complete Arcane puts it back in (and supersedes Energy Affinity again). Right now, Energy Affinity is the 3.5 Energy Substitution.      Which can be suppressed (without spending feats) and are not even nearly as restrictive, yeah.    That is a question, that is not easily answered. To you, as we know, the problem lies with the arcanists. I think (and most balance between 3.5 core classes threads underline this opinion) that the core classes are fine balance-wise.    Nah, when it's better to empower and penetrate +4 compared to augment (which is not as good as empower, of course), but penetrate +8, for example.      The wizard, ok, but the sorcerer with the incredibly slim spell selection (spells known)?   The psion is more generalist than the sorcerer there, actually. Only thing that keeps the sorcerer afloat is the better breadth in spell selection (class spell list).    Though, the specialist only needs to pick up a a single or a few powers to obtain this specialization, maybe a feat or two. So it's easily possible to specialize in multiple of those areas (blasting, summoning, etc.) at the same time, which is more akin to a high-powered generalist (with a good portion of the breadth of a true generalist, but the whole power of a specialist across the board), actually. Stuff like Endowment (I know you think it's weak <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />) is one of the reasons, as it includes all powers not just one school/discipline. Or Overchannel, which also works on all powers.    Yeah, I can see how some find them boring, they are in a way. But most people who now like sorcerers (including myself) only learned to really know how fun they are after playing them for a while. That's something you cannot make up on numbers, as it is just a feel. Certainly not everyone will have the same priorities and that's a good thing, but fun isn't really what this is about (and the psion, as you said, would win here anyways <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />).    So, in fact, we both have the same opinion, just different perceptions on what that means compared to the other classes (other than psions and sorcerers/wizards, that is).   You think, that psions are more in line with the other classes as a whole, while I think sorcerers/wizards are already in line with them and thus psions are not.    Bye  Thanee</blockquote>

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