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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 1774360" data-attributes="member: 3146">OK, let's look at how these stack up simply in terms of damage. In order to do so, we need a target or two (let's arbitrarily pick a troll (AC 19, 63hp, +9x2 (1d6+6)/+4 (1d6+3) + rend) and a 5th level fighter (AC 23 (+1 fullplate, +1 heavy shield, 12 dex), Atk +10 (1d10+6 bastard sword) (17 str, weapon focus, +1 weapon) that covers PCvsMonster and NPC vs PC).In order to do this, we need to pick an ability. Since this is a damage comparison, let's go for Improved Slam Attack which brings his damage up to 1d8+7. (Trip would probably far better but it will make the comparison too complex).Astral Construct vs Troll:Defense: AC 20, 36hp. The troll hits on an 11 with its claw attacks. It has a 25% chance to be missed by both, a 50% chance to be hit by one, and a 25% chance to be rended. If rended, it takes 4d6+21 points of damage--average 35hp. Then, there is a 25% chance for it to be hit with the bite which will deal an average of 6 hp.So, it will sometimes go down in one round. If it isn't rended, however, it will usually last for 3 rounds. (About a 55% chance of surviving until the troll's third full attack.Offense: Against AC 16, it will hit 60% of the time and deal 11.5 points of damage per hit. Including crits, that's an average of 7.245 damage/round.Astral Construct vs. Fighter:Defense: The fighter hits it on a roll of 10 and deals an average of 11.5 damage per hit. The fighter will take an average of 6 rounds to kill it.Offense: It will hit the fighter 25% of the time. Including crits it averages about 3.02 damage/roundFiendish Ape vs. trollDefense: With an AC of 14, the troll will hit with 80% of its claw attacks. Consequently, it will rend 64% of the time. DR reduces the trolls average damage per claw to 4.5 but the rend still inflicts 16 points of damage. With 29 hit points, it's got about a 13% chance of surviving until round 3. It's chances of surviving until round 2, however, seem pretty comparable to the construct's. (The construct will survive based upon not being rended 75% of the time and not quite being killed by rend damage; the ape will survive based on usually being rended but generally being able to survive the rend damage).Offense: It will hit 60% of the time with its claws and 35% of the time with its bite. It does an average of 12.73 damage per round--not including smites. Smiting gets it nothing against a troll but against a good creature similar to a troll would get it 2.52 more damage/round including crits.Ape vs. Fighter:Defense: The fighter hits the ape 85% of the time for an average of 11.5 damage per hit. That's 10.75 damage per round. The fighter will pretty reliably kill the ape in three rounds.Offense: It averages 4.75 damage per round against the fighter.Bison vs. Troll:Defense: With AC 13, the troll will hit 85% of the time and rend 72% of the time. With 37 hp, however, the bison will be able to survive even a max damage rend following two max damage claw attacks (total 34 points of damage). It is almost certain to make it to round 2 but, since it stands about a 55% chance of being rended twice running, it will has about the same chance of living to round 3 as the astral construct.Offense: It has a 65% chance of hitting the troll and deals an average of 13.5 points of damage. 9.21 points of damage per round. By smiting, it adds an average of 3.4 damage to an appropriate target in the first round.Bison vs. fighter:Defense: The fighter hits 90% of the time and deals 11.5 damage per hit for an average of 11.38 damage per round including crits. The fighter will need an average of 4 rounds to kill the bison--less if he has power attack, etc.Offense: The bison hits 30% of the time and deals an average of 4.25 damage/round to the fighter.So, the Improved Slam Astral Construct III looks to be a pretty solid contender with the best that Summon Monster III has to offer. It is a lot more survivable than the fiendish ape though not quite as survivable as the celestial bison in player vs. monster. As a tool for NPCs to use against players, it is dramatically more surviable than either the bison or the ape. Offensively, it is comparable to the bison but not the ape which does almost twice as much damage as it does PvM. As a tool for NPCs against the listed PC, none of them are particularly effective but the Astral Construct is in the ballpark of the bison and not the ape.When one considers the abilities on the astral construct list, it appears that astral construct will generally produce better flying combatants than Summon Monster (the dire bat and hippogriff, for instance are not as good as a flying Astral Construct III (though the hippogriff has better offense against low-AC foes)) but inferior aquatic combatants (aquatic monsters tend to be better than other monsters summonable by the spell).High level summon monster spells have the option to summon creatures for magical abilities (Hound Archon with Aid and Magic Circle Aura, the Bralani Eladrin with Cure Serious Wounds and Lightning Bolt, the Djinni, Bone Devil, Lillend, Couatl, Leonal, Barbed Devil, Night Hag, and Avoral. Summon Nature's Ally has the Unicorn, Satyr, Pixie, Grig, Noble Salamander, and Celestial Charger Unicorn. That, however, is far from the primary use of summon monster spells. As for odd non-magical abilities, I think Astral Construct actually has the upper hand. it's certainly possible to summon a celestial monkey to set off traps etc, but communication with summoned creatures is limited by language and their available forms are somewhat limited. For instance, you couldn't summon a celestial monkey to fly over the wall and unbar the door. It could unbar the door but it can't fly. Astral constructs are telepathically commanded eliminating the language barrier and can always be humaniform, eliminating a lot of form restrictions on non-magical creative uses for the spell.You also overlook the benefit of the construct type which has at least as many benefits as the non-DR aspects of the fiendish or celestial template. The other, incredibly significant aspect of astral constructs that you overlook is that astral constructs are not hedged out by magic circle vs. evil, etc. Summoned monsters can be countered in that manner. That's not a game-winning comparison in the psion/wizard comparison if only because once a wizard realizes that there is such an effect, he can generally summon creatures immune to it. It does, however significantly limit wizards' choices in a lot of situations.On the whole, I think Astral Constructs are inferior to summon monster at the high end but they're a lot closer than you seem to think--and they're probably better for NPCs to use against PCs. (And that said, they're better beatsticks at the higher levels--an Extreme Deflection, Extra Attack, Power Attack Astral Construct IX will kick a summoned Elder Earth Elemental's but ten ways till sunday and substituting Heavy Deflection, Muscle, and Trip for Extreme Deflection and Power Attack will make it far more deadly to PCs as well).</blockquote>

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