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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 1774612" data-attributes="member: 3146">Now I, on the other hand, would rate Astral Construct as worth 3 or 4 spells. Very few wizards--and fewer sorcerors--will ever learn the entire Summon Monster list. Summon Monster I and II are good only for masochists. Summon Monster III-IX are pretty good though. It wouldn't be too unusual for a wizard to have Summon Monster III, IV, VII, and IX or III, VI, and VIII or some similar combination. Even a wizard created at 20th level might well find uses for Summon Monster I (trapspringing), VI (healing, spellcasting), and IX (combat).Since I mentioned it, however, I'll run a comparison of Astral Construct IX against an Elder Elemental--straight up and MvP.Note that, since this is evaluating their utility as spells I throw them against foes one could expect to encounter when they are available rather than foes similar to their CRs:For the PC, I'll use something resembling my halberdier from the fighter/psywar thread: AC 45, 220 hp (or so), atk: +37/+37/+32/+27/+22 for 1d10+24. Since power attack is vital at high levels I will include some power attack numbers.Elder Earth Elemental: HP: 228, AC: 22, Atk +27/+27 (2d10+11 19-20/x2), DR 10/-Astral Construct IX (Extreme Deflection, Muscle, Extra Attack): HP: 144, AC 41, Atk: +30/+30/+30 (2d6+18); DR 15/magicElder Earth Elemental vs Astral Construct:Defense: The Astral Construct will hit on anything but a 1 and will deal an average of ten points per hit after DR. It survives an average of 8 rounds.Offense: The Elder Earth Elemental hits 35% of the time and deals an average of 6 points of damage per hit after DR. That's 4.2 points of damage per round. It will take 35 rounds to kill the construct.But that's not really fair since the construct's DR is easy to bypass and the elemental's isn't. (It just so happens that the elemental can't bypass the construct's DR). If the elemental is a proxy for other tough creatures, most of them will be able to beat the construct's DR. So that's 15.4 points of damage per round. The Elemental needs 10 rounds to kill the construct. That's better but it still loses to the construct.The above analysis doesn't figure in Earth Mastery either but that's not going to tip the balance.Elder Earth Elemental Vs. Cornugon: Defense: power attack 5: chain 95/70/45% for 2d6+25, bite 75% 2d8+10, tail 75% 2d6+10 plus infernal wound 44.1+6.75+5.25=56.1 damage/roundThe earth elemental has a 40% chance of not succumbing to the devil's fear aura.Offense: 65% chance of hitting: 17.16 damage per round including crits after DR is taken into consideration.If the DM house rules that magic circle against good effects neutral creatures in the same way as magic circle vs. evil, it probably can't attack the Cornugon at all.Astral Construct IX vs. Cornugon:Defense:Curiously, none of the Cornugon's attacks count as magic so it can't beat the construct's DR. However, I imagine DMs will often give the Cornugon a magic weapon So I'll run two sets of numbers. First the normal numbers then in parenthesis the numbers for a Cornugon with a +1 spiked chain.25%/5%/5% 2d6+15 chain (30/10/5% 2d6+16 chain), 10% bite (2d8+5), 10% tail (2d6+5): 2.45 (10.35) chain + (a 3.75% chance to deal ANY damage at all) + (a 2.5% chance to deal any damage at all). Total: about 2.5 points of damage per round (10.4 points of damage per round).It is immune to the Cornugon's Fear Aura.Offense: 80% chance to hit for 15 points of damage per hit (after DR). 37.8 damage per round to the Cornugon.Astral Construct IX vs. Fighter:Defense: The fighter has a 85%/85%/60%/35%/10% chance of hitting the creature and deals an average of 29.5 points of damage per hit. The construct pretty reliably takes about 81.12 points of damage per round. It'll die in the second round.Offense: The Construct has a 30% chance to hit and does an average of 25 points of damage. That's an average of 22.78 damage/round including crits and moderate fortification but excluding concealment.Elder Earth Elemental vs. Fighter:Defense: All of the fighter's attacks hit on a 1 even when he power attacks for 1. So, if he does that, he deals an average of 21.5 damage/hit after DR. That's 102.12 damage/round. The earth elemental is likely to survive 3 rounds of that.On the other hand, if the fighter power attacks for 6, he deals an average of 31.5 damage per hit after DR. That puts him up to 143.33 damage/round and the elemental will be dead halfway through the second round. If the fighter power attacks for 12, that's an average of 43.5 per hit for 171.83 damage per round after DR. At that rate, the fighter can use cleave to get his kill rate up to nearly one per round. There's probably an optimal power attack number that cranks it a bit higher but that's the ballpark it's likely to end up at. (It's not as if most PCs or NPCs reliably pick optimal power attack numbers anyways).Offense: The earth elemental has a 15% chance to hit and deals an average of 22 points of damage per hit. That's 6.765 damage per round including crits and moderate fortification but excluding concealment.The elder earth elemental has the best combo of attack and defense on the summon monster IX list and it looks to me like Astral Construct IX wins hands down in both the direct matchup and PvM. Where the Elder Earth elemental stands in for a generic monster, and beats the construct's DR, the Astral Construct still has a slight advantage.Overall, I think this confirms the previous analysis:Against generic monsters, Astral Constructs are comparable or slightly better than summoned monsters. Against monsters, PCs or NPCs, high level Astral Constructs are dramatically better than any of the summon monster beatsticks. Astral constructs have some non-magical special teams abilities too--and I believe they give up less to get combat abilities abilities (An Astral Construct III, for instance is a better flying combatant than a dire bat or a hippogriff) but they cannot combine those abilities in the way that summoned monsters can (a fiendish dire bat for instance has Blindsense and flight and hippogriffs have much better speed and wingover) making them more powerful but less versatile. Summoned monsters have no competition for magical special teams type abilities which are almost completely beyond the abilities of Astral Constructs.</blockquote>

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