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Message: <blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 6918532" data-attributes="member: 12731">Let me adress that separately and specifically, because to be honest, now you are merely perpetuating an illusion I've seen others post about, a dream with no substance. At least if WotC doesn't take drastic action. But bear with me, and we'll end up with a positive suggestion on how to move forward at the very end.First off, spending significant resources on shoring up your weaknesses could be a worthy endevour. But not when it merely takes you from "pure crap" to "still very weak". So there's the fun factor to take into account - it simply isn't fun to be asked to focus on a crappy save defense that a) you'll never use for anything active or useful, and b) will likely STILL fail.Secondly, it does not even work. The amount of resources you need to divert to ensure all your six saves are solid is simply staggering. It would mean you basically can't specialize in anything, it means you basically can't be especially good at anything. That is because even if you put all six ASIs always to your weakest ability (which by the way is the complete opposite of effective build strategy) that is still a mere 12 ability points, or +2 per save bonus out of three crappy saves.That is a huge, nay GINORMOUS, investment. And all it does it perhaps, just perhaps, giving you a 10% chance at making your worst save. And the cost is utterly injustifiable: you have just gimped your hero to have essentially no strong suits whatsoever.---At this stage we could use some illustrating numbers. So a level 12 character might sport the following ability scores and related feats, in order of greatness:Dex 20 (proficiency and advantage)Wis 20 (and a feat such as Resilient granting proficiency)Con 14Str 12 (proficiency)Int 10Cha 8The saving throw bonuses are like follows:Dex +10Wis +10Con +2Str +1Int 0Cha -1Against a DC 20 save, the chances of success are as follows:Dex ~75% (my way of expressing the advantage)Wis 55%Con 15%Str 10%Int 5%Cha 0That is, frankly, horrible.Do note how each ASI would shore up a bad save by only +1 a pop, so even if ALL SIX were used on Charisma, it would merely bring it up to a very mediocre +5. Not only is that not the way D&D has ever worked, it doesn't even work that well. It is not fun, and I simply cannot take the suggestion seriously.The problem is that, no matter how heroic you are, an epic threat can always shut you down absolutely guaranteed, through no fault of your own. There is nothing you can do to bring up those poor saves even temporarily.That is not heroic at all. It is unfun. It is game design that simply does not work.If you expect heroes to seek out epic monsters to do battle with them you must give them a fighting chance.I'm not saying heroes can't have a weak save or two. I'm saying heroes can't have four weak saves, where the weakest two are utterly useless. ---The situation is so bad that we as a group start to consider rather extreme courses of action.Should I as a DM hand out +3 Cloak of Protections to every party member? It feels off (to say the least) to feel forced to hand out magic items just to make the basic game work.Should the party never venture out without a Paladin in the group? Her +5 saving throw bonus is beyond anything else the game can offer.---Sorry to burst your bubble but playing the game tells me it simply isn't built to handle save DCs above 20.The save DCs of spells do work in a reasonable way. That is, a first spell level effect has a DC of 11, while a ninth spell level has a DC of 19.If the game was carefully calibrated so that DC 20 was about the highest you would ever encounter, the saving throws as currently implemented might just work.--- If the rules for saving throws put a minimum of your proficiency bonus that might also help out a lot.Our example character would then go from the above to the following:Dex +10Wis +10Con +5Str +5Int +5Cha +5---If the designers reverted their decision to go with six saves, that could form the basis that makes your own suggestion work.(It's the drastic action I spoke of earlier)That is, if your Fortitude save is the best of your Strength and Con bonuses, your Reflex save is the better of Dex and Int, and your Will save is based on either Wis or Cha.Then you would at least have a fighting chance. Our example character is obviously not built with this option in mind, but it would make it a much more fair playing field if you know this before you start planning and creating your character build.Even so, we get:Fortitude +2Reflex +10Will +10This is actually much more reasonable. Not only are two out of three saves suitably heroic (instead of just two out of six), but each ASI spent on shoring up the bad saves gives at least twice as much bang for the buck. That is, if you spend the ASI to add to your bad Fortitude save, it automatically lifts both your Strength and your Con saves. Furthermore, you can spend it by taking Resilience (Con) which I must grant you is now a very worthwhile improvement (since it brings up the Fort save from +2 to +7 or possible even +8).The only downside is that obviously existing class save proficiencies aren't designed for this. For instance, this character starts out with only proficiency in one out of the three saves (because it starts with Strength and Constitution saves), which is obviously a drawback compared to a class that just happens to gain two.(If you allow the Resilience feat, not such a big deal. If you don't, it's a concern)</blockquote>

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