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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MonkeyWrench" data-source="post: 6920084" data-attributes="member: 20730">Too few hit points was an issue, but not the only one. In a way, the short fight was a result of excellent planning on the part of the players and their allies. Thematically and from an RP-perspective the fight was epic, but it was boring and short from a game mechanics perspective. Details:The Party and its Allies20th level vampire necromancer 20th level devotion paladin10/10 Immortal/Champion Ftr w/ BlackrazorSolar - guardian angel of the paladinGrazz't - ally of the necromancer, brought numerous demon allies3 Ultralithids - sent by Elder Brain CyrogElder Brain Cyrog - provided backend anti-divination and dimensional travel supportThe OpponentsOrcus - w/o WandUndead - mostly mid-CR ghouls, wights, and incorporeal undead, but also included 2 death Knights, 2 liches, and a death tyrant. In total, maybe 50+ undead in immediate vicinityDemons - primarily shadow demons, but also 6 vrocks, a cambion Archmage, and a balor The Setup- necromancer wanted revenge against Orcus and to usurp his place as demon lord of undeath, sought allies among illithids due to Orcus' actions in OotA- necromancer obtained Orcus' Wand and immediately sought to destroy it by havung  the unnamed hero whose skull tops the wand carry it into the positive energy plane- With Cyrog's aid, the necromancer and Immortal time travel using the Far Realm to find the unnamed hero (paladin)convince him to accompany them to the positive engry plane. Unnamed hero destroys Wand, and he and immortal soak up some positive energy for a boost for the fight. - two events then happen simultaneously: the party travels to Orcus' lair the instant he's returned from battling Demogorgon in Menzoberranzen so that he's at his weakest. Grazz't leads his demons in an attack on Orcus' lair while the immortal, paladin, and solar go toe-to-toe with Orcus. Necromancer, Ultralithids, and necromancer's many undead and demonic minions provide support. The necromancer dealt the killing blow with a bite attack, draining Orcus's undead essence and becoming a demon lord herself. Once Orcus was dealt with, the Immortal time traveled to find the mortal who would one day become Orcus and slew him with Blackrazor. I don't recall the round-by-round details, but between the paladin and Immortal (who crit twice) going nova, Orcus took over 400 damage in one round. I had the minions cancel each other out as I didn't want to play out a fight with a 100+ demonic NPCs. The fight was basically Orcus, the balor, and death Knights versus the immortal and paladin. Necromancer and solar were on minion duty. Orcus was able to act twice before dropping. Yes, this encounter was far from "typical", but to be honest, I took one look at the demon lords in the OotA appendix and thought they looked like chumps. Low hp, low ACs, weak damage. I'm sure they're a threat for by-the-book 15th level PCs with no feats, multi classing, or high level magic items, but it's a problem for me and my group that there aren't credible threats for groups that play with those options.</blockquote>

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