Anyone else 'seeing' this?...

[steeldragons]

Branching off from the blog thread about Backgrounds and Themes...

My mind has been soaking up all of the dribs n' drabs of info we've been receiving...listening to peoople's responses...formulating my own shtuff...

Below is a "sample party" that I am envisioning for 5e. Obviously all of the specific mechnical stuff is hypothetical...but give it a read and let me know if I'm the only one envisioning this kind of set up...and./or getting excited about it.

[note these are all being assumed to be level 1 PCs and that available lists of abilities, skills, themes, etc. will, most likely, expand in further books/sets/offerings or in the "full" levels 1-20 PHB. But for this purpose, let's presume a "starter set" of levels 1-5.]

Player 1: Human Fighter.
CLASS: Fighter - Player chooses 3 of 5 (or 10) Class Features. Additional features or increasing training will occur at some point, i.e. every other level, every third, whatever. Let's say: Weapon Master: "Swords group", Toughness, "Sword n' Board" fighting style.

RACE: Human - the only Human Racial Abilitiy is "Human Versatility". Player gets to choose an additional Class Feature, at level 1 only, and an additional Skill to tack on, regardless of their Background. Player opts for Weapons Master: "Spears group" as their additional Class Feature and...we'll get to the extra Skill.

BACKGROUND: Player chooses the "Town Guard" background, granting: Alertness, Intimidate, Perception (Spots n' Searches). Player decides he's from a town that was near a dwarven colony and so selects "Language: Dwarf" as his additional "extra for being Human" skill.

THEME: Player chooses the "Slayer" theme, granting him: Power Attack, Combat Maneuver X, Weapon Focus: "Long Sword" (+1 to hit and damage with the focused weapon, every 3 levels that stacks with his "Weapon Master" bonus).

Player 2: Elf Fighter
CLASS: Fighter - Player chooses 3 of the 5 (or 10( Class Features to start. Weapon Master: "Long./Short Bow", "Archery" fighting style, and "Skirmisher" fighting style.

RACE: Elf - automatically receives: Low-light vision, +1 to Dex and +1 to Int., "Elf Senses": grants +2 to all Perception and Search rolls. Player may pick 3 other racial abilities (again from a list of 5 or 10 options)or opts for "Standard/Default Elf Package": granting immunity to Enchantment magic, +1 to use long/short bows and long/short swords, and Woodlore.

BACKGROUND: Player chooses "Apprentice", granting her: Read Arcane Magic (as a mundane/non-spell skill); spontaneous casting of the following cantrips Int-bonus +1 times per day: Detect Magic, Light or Prestidigitation; Knowledge: Arcana.

THEME: Player selects "Slayer" from the standard Fighter Theme list. Receiving the same "feats" as above.

Player 3: Halfling Rogue
CLASS: Rogue - Player chooses 3 of the 5 (or 10) Class Features to start. Let's say: Stealth, Sneak Attack, Detect/Disarm Traps.

RACE: Halfling - Player automatically receives: Low-light vision, +1 to Dex and +1 to Con, Small Size: +2 to AC against larger than human-sized foes. Player fore goes the "Standard/Default Halfling Package" and instead chooses from the Halfling Racial Ability list: Halfling Hiding, Soft-step (move silently and surprise if alone/X feet away from the party, bonus stacks with Rogue Stealth ability), and Halfling Resitance (or Immunity?) to Fear effects.

BACkGROUND: Player chooses "Thief" from the standard Rogue BG list, granting: Thievery, Gather Information, Perception (Spot, Listen and Search checks).

THEME: Player chooses "Lurker" from the standard Rogue Theme list: receives some kind of bonus to Sneak Attack, Stealth and Thievery rolls, some additional combat-related feat.

Player 4: Human Mage
CLASS: Mage - Player chooses 3 of 5 (or 10) Class Features to start: Language: Elf, Knowledge: Arcana, Arcane Adept (apply Int-bonus to number of spell levels castable per day). Receives Read Arcane Magic (as non-spell skill) automatically.

RACE: Human - choose extra Class Feature and extra Skill, regardless of background, as above. Chooses: Spellcraft as their bonus Class Feature.

BACKGROUND: Player chooses "Scholar" from the standard Mage BG list, granting: bonus to Will saves and Int. checks, interaction bonus with other mages, clerics, sages, etc., 2 additional "Knowledge" Skills....Chooses additional Language as their "extra for being human" Skill.

THEME: Player chooses "Mystic" from the standard Mage Themes list, granting: Spontaneously cast Int-bonus number of spells per day (from spells available in your spellbook), additional Will save bonus (that stacks with the bonuis from their BG), Read Divine and Nature Magic as a non-magical ability (use of scrolls of all types).

I'm sure I could come up with a cleric, druid or ranger or what have you option...but you get the gist.

Does this feel good/right/what we're seeing to people or am I totally off base? Are you excited by something like this, as I am, or would you rather see something entirely different? Does this sound like classes are adequately"balanced", to people who care about such things?

--SD

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

I think that's.. quite a lot of guesswork! I don't want to detract from your effort, but it seems.. premature.

If you want feedback, then they clearly aren't balanced. Humans get 1 bonus class feature but demi-humans get 3 racial features. The Wizard choices seem like taxes.

 

[steeldragons]

I think that's.. quite a lot of guesswork! I don't want to detract from your effort, but it seems.. premature.

Well, yes. It is premature...but I think we've been told enough to wager a guess in this vein.

If you want feedback, then they clearly aren't balanced. Humans get 1 bonus class feature but demi-humans get 3 racial features.

Yes. demi-humans have always, and I assume will again, received more racial abilities than humans. The humans are capable of being "better" at what they do [class, harkening back, flavor-wise, to ye olde "unlimited levels" without imposing class levels for race]. Whereas the demi-humans are, generally speaking, better at what they "are" [have abilities humans simply do not/would never have].

I suppose, if you're looking for "balance" in this way between humans and non-humans, you could say that humans get to select 3 more "skills", while other races receive their racial abilities...but then, I would be concerned humans become just walking skill boxes.

The Wizard choices seem like taxes.

Taxes?! How so? They are allowed to choose as many class features as anyone else...Background and Theme add to those (and allow customization so one wizard is not necessarily the same as every other).

 

[ren1999]

I'm leaning more toward Pathfinder's latest Beginners material. It is really nice. I would add more starting hit points and I really want organization of powers.

Lots of powers are also feats and repetitive.
We need to reduce them and combine similar powers for the core books. Then add more powers in further books.

30 powers for each major class.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

Yes. demi-humans have always, and I assume will again, received more racial abilities than humans. The humans are capable of being "better" at what they do [class, harkening back, flavor-wise, to ye olde "unlimited levels" without imposing class levels for race]. Whereas the demi-humans are, generally speaking, better at what they "are" [have abilities humans simply do not/would never have].

I suppose, if you're looking for "balance" in this way between humans and non-humans, you could say that humans get to select 3 more "skills", while other races receive their racial abilities...but then, I would be concerned humans become just walking skill boxes.

I get the 'humans are better at their classes' thing, but with what you had laid out I got the impression that there was little synergy between abilities you choose from the same set. So that fighter would be able to use swords and spears, but ultimately worse with swords than an elf. So Humans are in fact broader, non-specialised types?

Taxes?! How so? They are allowed to choose as many class features as anyone else...Background and Theme add to those (and allow customization so one wizard is not necessarily the same as every other).

Well, it's hard to tell, but being able to cast +INT spell levels per day (who knows how many they start with but I'm guessing not many) sounds like a must-have, and therefore a tax.

 

[Ratskinner]

Branching off from the blog thread about Backgrounds and Themes...

My mind has been soaking up all of the dribs n' drabs of info we've been receiving...listening to peoople's responses...formulating my own shtuff...
<snippage>

I'm sure I could come up with a cleric, druid or ranger or what have you option...but you get the gist.

Does this feel good/right/what we're seeing to people or am I totally off base? Are you excited by something like this, as I am, or would you rather see something entirely different? Does this sound like classes are adequately"balanced", to people who care about such things?

--SD

It doesn't too far off base to me. I'm hoping, though, that we have fewer things that do more work mechanically.

 

[Szatany]

It is my understanding that backgrounds grant skills and skills only. But in your post you write them as granting spellcasting and other special abilities as well. Is that intentional?

 

[steeldragons]

I get the 'humans are better at their classes' thing, but with what you had laid out I got the impression that there was little synergy between abilities you choose from the same set. So that fighter would be able to use swords and spears, but ultimately worse with swords than an elf. So Humans are in fact broader, non-specialised types?

No no. I would expect that...what did I call it "Weapon Mastery" or what have you, would give you something like a +1 with the weapon type, every 3 levels or so. So, at say 3rd level, the human fighter is +2 to hit and damage with his swords and spears. The elf is still +1 with his sword...but would be +3 (+2 for the weapon mastery:bows and +1 for being an elf). The human would definitely not be worse than the elf...nor any broader, really (unless the player took options to make him that way).

Well, it's hard to tell, but being able to cast +INT spell levels per day (who knows how many they start with but I'm guessing not many) sounds like a must-have, and therefore a tax.

Well, ok. I don't know. I was just making up stuff to put into the slots. I'm sure there could be plenty of other options as Class Features for a wizard that could be, as equally, "must haves." The traits either works for my vision of my character or it doesn't. Any ability/skill/feat/whatever is only a "must have" if you think it is. There is absolutely nothing in the completely hypothetical class ability that says "you have to take this". Maybe you want to be able to cast spontaneously instead...or want extra spells/abilities of a certain magic type/school...or, I dunno, anything else in that list of 5 or 10 things you can pick.

It is my understanding that backgrounds grant skills and skills only. But in your post you write them as granting spellcasting and other special abilities as well. Is that intentional?

I, personally, do not consider 1-to-what, maybe, 5 or 6 max fairly benign cantrips to be comparable to anything more than a skill (Hell, a "Skill" you can use all day long as many times as you'd like). But yes, fine, if you want to be technical about it...and consider that level of spell-casting to be beyond the range of what "skills" should allow, imagine that it isn't there and something like "Spellcraft" or "Use Magic Device" or "Scribe Scroll" or something like that is in its place. Other than that...I don't see any "special abilities" beyond skills listed in the backgrounds I presented.

It's not about what I wrote, completely made up off the top of my head for illustrative purposes, as the skills/feats/boons...those will be defined in/by the game....I thought, somewhat obviously.

I don't know what "Power Attack" will actually mean...+1 to hit? +10 to damage? I dunno! IS there a fighter attack bonus that comes with the class? What "comes with" Lurker Theme or what "Stealth" will entail...is it a skill? Or is it a class ability?...or can it be applied in either area?...and/or does it come with a Theme?...all of them?

Well...I'd play it, anyway.
--SD

 

[Andor]

I d not think they will have, and would not like to see, racial abilities as 'pick from a list.' But it does give me a thought...

You could split the racial abilities off from the racial cultural packages and set those up as backgrounds or even themes.

So a Dwarf will always have Con +1 and infravision but a dwarf raised in the deeps beneath the eldest mountain might have the "dark dwarf" background which is very different from his cousin Istvan who live in a city and has the "town dandy" background.

Likewise a human raised amoung halflings might have the "Shire Sherriff" background. And perhaps Aragorn was a Human Ranger with the "Elf Lord" background due to his training in Rivendell and Loth Lorien in his youth.

It also lets you set up multiple cultural packages for hill dwarves vs mountain dwarves and lets the player decide how dwarfy a dwarf he wants to be. Maybe he'll just pick the Soldier background and not worry about advance beard braiding.

Edit: That aside, and with the understanding that all the mechanics are pure guess work, that is along the lines of what I expect to see when I mug a playtester and snatch a copy of the rules from his bleeding corpse.

 

[Lanefan]

My first thought on reading the OP is all of those classes have WAY too many powers-abilities-etc. for being only 1st level; and aren't skills supposed to be really simplified this time around e.g. Alertness and Perception being the same thing?

I thought the idea was to keep this as simple as possible, at least for the basic core.

Lanefan