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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ruleslawyer" data-source="post: 4056541" data-attributes="member: 1757">Actually, eight 20th-level PCs should be good for encounters significantly beyond EL 24... also the DM is safer to ensure that those encounters are composed of multiple lower-CR creatures rather than single higher-CR creatures. As written, a great wyrm red dragon is an "overwhelming encounter" for a party of four 20th-level PCs (the standard size). The fact that the dragon is probably under-CRed by 1 or 2 (even with the increase from 3.0 to 3.5) is an additional problem.Dragons are *tough.*Your eight 20th-level PCs are probably just fine, but that is an atypical group size. Moreover, I'd guess that at least one PC bites it in that fight (not that this is all that big a deal given the availability of true resurrection).Given the number of dragons that populate WotC modules at all levels of play (starting at 1st), and the fact that gaming groups seem to get through those modules hopefully more than half the time, I'd say it's certainly doable. I don't use little dragons IMC; I don't want more than two or three dragon encounters in a given campaign and if I'm going to make them special, it probably shouldn't be too early in the game. I have not yet had a dragon show up in my current 8th-level game, for instance.As others have said, I just want higher-level dragons to be something other than high-level sorcerers in lizard costumes. It looks like 4e is taking things in a better direction in that respect.</blockquote>

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