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Message: <blockquote data-quote="moritheil" data-source="post: 4058046" data-attributes="member: 30610">Sorry, I should clarify that I'm going by the EL rules, which state a party of 4 at level 20 is good for an encounter at level 20.  Doubling it means you add 4 to the EL; thus an eight player party indicates EL 24.As for what practically works, that varies widely for the reasons I mentioned above.If you'll forgive my saying so, I suspect what it really means is that those players had no idea of how epic combat works.  They should have planned for half or indeed a majority of their number to be wiped out in the opening round before acting.As a very simple exercise on what I would expect, what if all seven had been clerics?  Suppose 3 live through the dragon's attack.  Two of those three clerics cast gate and summon solars with maximized hit points.  The third casts miracle and brings all the dead back to life instantly to fight on.  They all cast gate and summon solars with maximized hit points.Then the real battle is joined.  Various characters spam dispel magic at the dragon with superior caster level, pulling away its buff spells, while other casters attempt to keep the dragon stunned or blinded.  The solars lay down a hail of ranged fire, forcing the dragon to keep making saving throws until it rolls low and promptly dies.That's an example of what I'd expect in a normal epic fight.  In a powergaming fight?A level 20 party cleric with 7 or 8 classes cobbled together wins initiative easily, coming out ahead of the dragon by 20 or more.  He tosses a quickened dispel, appears next to it via teleportation from an item as his move action, then paralyzes it instantly via a high caster level holy word (no saving throw, impossible to fail SR check due to having a caster level of 40+ vs an SR of 38.)  Or perhaps the level 20 mage wins initiative and promptly throws a dispel followed by 16 negative levels against the flat-footed touch AC of the great wyrm.  It loses a chunk of hit points, caster level, and attack bonuses, and falls prey to save-or-die spells when the others act.The fight is over and the dragon has done nothing.  The party spends more time dividing the loot than anything else.</blockquote>

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