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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Helldritch" data-source="post: 7383774" data-attributes="member: 6855114">Before I start answering your question I need to mention that just like you I did move Find trap to the investigate skill. On the other hand, Perception can still find a trap but I make the DC 3 higher to "just" see the trap instead of finding it. Second house rule, we do have a "surprise" round where an ambush is possible and that the ambushers can get a free round of combat before the other side can make the initiative. It works both ways. Monsters and foes can and will make ambushes against the party as much as they are ambushing their enemies. That being said...The rogue is quite fine as is. Remember that the rogue's role isn't to be a full fledge warrior. That is far from his role.At low level the rogue will be the scout of the party in dungeons and probably in the wilderness too.Normaly a rogue will prioritize Stealth, Investigation or Perception and Pick locks  (tools). The last one is usually something like sleight of hand or either investigation or perception (in my games for the house rule given above).The rogue will usually be 60 to 120 feet ahead of the group to scout ahead. He needs those skills. When he has finished scouting and listening to doors and mapping what can be mapped, the rogue will make an accurate report to the group. That knowledge can be invaluable to a successful group.Disabling traps (and finding them) can (and will) save a lot of damage and thus, save a lot of spells to the party's healer(s).At mid level, the rogue will have the same role. Now the scouting/mapping part can be made by magic if needed. But in some adventures, using magic to investigate the complex/area might not be a good idea as some foes will be able to put some sentries/spells/features that could foil magical investigation. Not all magic spells but some of them can be foiled quite easily.Again the rogue will be able to scout ahead of the party, find traps even more effectively and probably be able to hold his own in combat. The sneak attack feature is often an extremely good finishing move.During the exploration phase, if the rogue is an assassin, he can become quite deadly for sentries. A lone sentry or an assassin in the sleeping quarters of the guards can litteraly wreak havoc on them. I have seen an assassin slay 20 guards in this fashion. Stealthy Killing can be horrifying to witness. At high level the rogue are becoming even more dangerous. A single rogue can get in an out of a stronghold witouth anyone noticing. The stealth skill could be as high as +17! With reliable talent your rogue will steadily get 27 or higher on his stealth rolls. None will see him/her if that is his/her wish. No traps will be safe from such a rogue as he will see them, disarm them and rearm them as needed. No sir, the safe room is still locked, but it is empty. How it was done is beyond my understanding, even the magical traps have not triggered nor did the magical alarm. Yep, the anti-teleportation and anti-etheral counter measure are still active sir. Again, combat will not be something to sneeze at. Such a rogue could single handedly kill the garnison of a whole castle/dungeon with dual sneak attacks or simply with the assassin's auto crit feature (and that class will use poison). He would not do it on the leader and important foes, but the support cast won't be safe from him.If this is your idea of a weak class, I do not share it.</blockquote>

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