Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kobold Stew" data-source="post: 7385052" data-attributes="member: 23484">I also find the 5e rogue disappointing, and less fun to play than in previous editions. In part, this is because I want specific things from my thief/rogue, and they are not measured in DPR:(1) a (mostly) non-magical class. Arcane Trickster aside, rogue is the only class that is spell-less by design apart from the fighter. (2) skill monkey. Able to do more non-combat non-magical things than other classes. (3) a class capable of excelling in the exploring and or social game, while holding their own in combat. (4) diversity of builds. I want viable charisma rouges, intelligence rogues, strength rogues, wisdom rogues. Not just Dex rogues.In my view, the 5e rogue delivers (1), but not (2)-(4); I recognize that my desires might be the problem here. Nevertheless:(2) Two extra skills and expertise should deliver, but bard and ranger also get one extra skill, and bard gets expertise from level 3, as well as Jack of all trades at 2. From levels 3-11 (when Reliable Talent kicks in), then, the Rogue is not more versatile in skills as a bard, who is additionally a full caster with tons of utility. The only thing that distinguishes Rogues is the ability to apply expertise to Thieves' Tools, which Rogues can't do.(3) The Ranger has a better exploration game (as does the Outlander background for outdoor games); thieves' tools proficiency are easily acquired in background. Three spellcasting classes use charisma as a prime stat (Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock), and two use it as a secondary stat (Cleric, Paladin). With backgrounds, any of these can naturally be a party face. (4) Without multiclassing, I think I have yet to see a rogue with less than a 14 dex. I recognize I may want a diversity of builds that doesn't exist for other classes, but since this is the only non-fighter non-magical option, and since fighters can do equally well with Strength or Dex, I would like the ability to have viable builds favoring mental stats. Things have begun to change. XGTE does have subclasses that favour these stats, but I don't think  they can do so without at least a +2 Dex modifier.The problem for me, then, isn't that the rogue can't hold their own or be almost as good as someone else; but that there is nothing they can do that is distinctly theirs. (2) and (3) point to niche erosion -- you need to make some pretty focussed choices in order to hold on to any edge. And those choices (4) don't allow a wide variety of builds.  I know these aren't [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] 's issues. I agree that the rules for Sneak Attack are byzantine and non-intuitive, but that's not where I see the real fix being needed.</blockquote>

Verification