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Anyone else tired of the miserly begrudging Rogue design of 5E?
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<blockquote data-quote="SmokeyCriminal" data-source="post: 7392344" data-attributes="member: 6876146"><p>So, I really like how the Rogue plays. The fact that the rogue damage is middle of the road feels like a feature to me and not a bug. If the Rogue did too much more damage then It would feel like the game would be signalling me and thus compel me to take combat more seriously, in terms of dealing and optimizing damage. And then I would feel less "free" or feel guilty when I spend my turn swinging on chandeliers, pick pocketing, and pulling levers in the middle of combat, because I wouldn't be doing my "job."</p><p></p><p>That said, I wouldn't mind a tiny flavourful DPS bump. Which brings me to [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] and his request.</p><p></p><p>I really like the idea of raising the Sneak Attack dice. But turning all the d6 into d8, and then d10 feels like too big a spike in damage. So I thought of raising the dice by Tier. So the DPS scales a little slower, and it gives the impression that your getting better at Sneak Attacking then just getting more dice.</p><p></p><p>So for example, your Sneak Attack would look like this:</p><p>At 5th lvl; 2d6+1d8 (1) A general DPS increase compared to Base Sneak Attack</p><p>10th lvl; 2d6+3d8 (1, 2, 3)</p><p>15th lvl; 2d6+3d8+3d10 (5, 7, 9)</p><p>19th lvl 2d6+3d8+3d10+2d12 (12, 15)</p><p></p><p>The damage increase stays relatively linear, It doesn't surpass a Fighter with SD and AS (I think?), and it feels flavourful.</p><p></p><p>You keep mentioning that Sneak Attack on your Turn is only "half" the Rogues "true Sneak Attack damage" and only when they get their out of turn Sneak Attack in, is when they get their "whole" Sneak Attack damage. And having them reliant on AoO (DM fiat) or weird Haste/Action Surge shenanigans where you "I hold my action to attack if the Goblin does anything other then drop his weapon and surrenders" which feels really dumb.</p><p></p><p>But also you don't want to just double the Rogues Sneak Attack without some kind of cost (I think you/someone suggested a Feat?).</p><p></p><p>Well my suggestion is to give the Rogue a Feature at 5th lvl when they get Uncanny Dodge;</p><p></p><p>Uncanny Damage: On a Hit, spend your Reaction to add Sneak Attack.</p><p></p><p>If you don't want it to work with Range Weapons say 'on a melee hit"</p><p>If you don't want it to stack with Sneak Attack, don't let it. </p><p></p><p>This way a Rogue gets their "whole Sneak Attack" every turn, but it comes at the cost of Uncanny Dodge. You decide every turn if you want to take half damage, or deal double damage, depending on the current situation. It feels like this stays on theme with the way the Rogue plays in combat due to Cunning Action. This just expands on it. And its really simple to implement.</p><p></p><p>And finally, If Assassinate doesn't work for you. why not change it to;</p><p></p><p>Assassinate: Your first Hit during an encounter is an auto critical.</p><p>If you want it to be a little harder, specify that it only works with their first attack, so if they miss, they lost it.</p><p></p><p>It's simple and straight forward. and it shifts the "meta game" from out of combat, and "how do I get a surprise round." To, in combat, and "My first hit has to go to the most important target." Which feels assassin-y.</p><p></p><p>And if your using Uncanny Attack with Assassinate, then your first hit can be 4x Sneak Attack, Which will solve your issue that the Assassin Rogue doesn't actually assassinate anything.</p><p></p><p>Finally, I see what your trying to do with your Backstab Die and its not bad. But one of the things I love about the Rogue is the lack of resource management in combat. Adding a resource burden for extra DPS doesn't feel worth it. Keep your Rogue free, don't make them have to make that scrunchy face that all the other Players have to make when they're deciding if they should Frenzy, or Spend their slot, spend a point, use a die ect. ect.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="SmokeyCriminal, post: 7392344, member: 6876146"] So, I really like how the Rogue plays. The fact that the rogue damage is middle of the road feels like a feature to me and not a bug. If the Rogue did too much more damage then It would feel like the game would be signalling me and thus compel me to take combat more seriously, in terms of dealing and optimizing damage. And then I would feel less "free" or feel guilty when I spend my turn swinging on chandeliers, pick pocketing, and pulling levers in the middle of combat, because I wouldn't be doing my "job." That said, I wouldn't mind a tiny flavourful DPS bump. Which brings me to [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] and his request. I really like the idea of raising the Sneak Attack dice. But turning all the d6 into d8, and then d10 feels like too big a spike in damage. So I thought of raising the dice by Tier. So the DPS scales a little slower, and it gives the impression that your getting better at Sneak Attacking then just getting more dice. So for example, your Sneak Attack would look like this: At 5th lvl; 2d6+1d8 (1) A general DPS increase compared to Base Sneak Attack 10th lvl; 2d6+3d8 (1, 2, 3) 15th lvl; 2d6+3d8+3d10 (5, 7, 9) 19th lvl 2d6+3d8+3d10+2d12 (12, 15) The damage increase stays relatively linear, It doesn't surpass a Fighter with SD and AS (I think?), and it feels flavourful. You keep mentioning that Sneak Attack on your Turn is only "half" the Rogues "true Sneak Attack damage" and only when they get their out of turn Sneak Attack in, is when they get their "whole" Sneak Attack damage. And having them reliant on AoO (DM fiat) or weird Haste/Action Surge shenanigans where you "I hold my action to attack if the Goblin does anything other then drop his weapon and surrenders" which feels really dumb. But also you don't want to just double the Rogues Sneak Attack without some kind of cost (I think you/someone suggested a Feat?). Well my suggestion is to give the Rogue a Feature at 5th lvl when they get Uncanny Dodge; Uncanny Damage: On a Hit, spend your Reaction to add Sneak Attack. If you don't want it to work with Range Weapons say 'on a melee hit" If you don't want it to stack with Sneak Attack, don't let it. This way a Rogue gets their "whole Sneak Attack" every turn, but it comes at the cost of Uncanny Dodge. You decide every turn if you want to take half damage, or deal double damage, depending on the current situation. It feels like this stays on theme with the way the Rogue plays in combat due to Cunning Action. This just expands on it. And its really simple to implement. And finally, If Assassinate doesn't work for you. why not change it to; Assassinate: Your first Hit during an encounter is an auto critical. If you want it to be a little harder, specify that it only works with their first attack, so if they miss, they lost it. It's simple and straight forward. and it shifts the "meta game" from out of combat, and "how do I get a surprise round." To, in combat, and "My first hit has to go to the most important target." Which feels assassin-y. And if your using Uncanny Attack with Assassinate, then your first hit can be 4x Sneak Attack, Which will solve your issue that the Assassin Rogue doesn't actually assassinate anything. Finally, I see what your trying to do with your Backstab Die and its not bad. But one of the things I love about the Rogue is the lack of resource management in combat. Adding a resource burden for extra DPS doesn't feel worth it. Keep your Rogue free, don't make them have to make that scrunchy face that all the other Players have to make when they're deciding if they should Frenzy, or Spend their slot, spend a point, use a die ect. ect. [/QUOTE]
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