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Anyone else tired of the miserly begrudging Rogue design of 5E?
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<blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 7536612" data-attributes="member: 6750235"><p>It isn't meaningless to me and given that reliable talent comes significantly sooner than peerless skill for lore bards (don't apply a subclass benefit to all bards) it's clear to see rogues have it better from level 11 on.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It hasn't been demonstrated that the bard outclasses the rogue up until level 11 yet. Rogues get another skill proficiency and expertise at 1st level while bards wait until 3rd. Rogues gain more expertise at 6th level while bards wait until 10th level when rogues get the bonus ASI.</p><p></p><p>The progression gives rogues benefits faster than bards to keep rogues ahead.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I would take resilience in CON instead and wait for WIS unless I knew we would not play those levels. What you've seen is anecdotal at best and countered by my having seen many high level campaigns with several starting as high level campaigns.</p><p></p><p>Don't assume everyone is starting at low levels.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>My mileage definitely varies because other than levels 3-5 (which are similar sans the extra rogue skill proficiency) the rogue always has more skill benefits.</p><p></p><p>A bard subclass knows 2 more proficiencies and that still doesn't add reliable talent or gain expertise at the same rate. I take the skilled feat on every rogue (because I have an extra ASI and it pairs well with reliable talent) and never on lore bards (because 1 less ASI, jack of all trades gives breadth, and peerless skill can be used in a pinch later).</p><p></p><p>Additionally, cunning action allows for hiding as a bonus action (an early skill mod all rogues gain) and rogue subclasses grant additional skill benefits. For example; fast hands, second-story work, and supreme sneak modify rogue skills for the thief subclass over what bard skills gain.</p><p></p><p>It's inequitable to compare rogue base class abilities to bards with loremaster benefits.</p><p></p><p>Bards defeinitely have skill benefits as part of the class but at no point are they superior. Generally they are behind.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ashrym, post: 7536612, member: 6750235"] It isn't meaningless to me and given that reliable talent comes significantly sooner than peerless skill for lore bards (don't apply a subclass benefit to all bards) it's clear to see rogues have it better from level 11 on. It hasn't been demonstrated that the bard outclasses the rogue up until level 11 yet. Rogues get another skill proficiency and expertise at 1st level while bards wait until 3rd. Rogues gain more expertise at 6th level while bards wait until 10th level when rogues get the bonus ASI. The progression gives rogues benefits faster than bards to keep rogues ahead. I would take resilience in CON instead and wait for WIS unless I knew we would not play those levels. What you've seen is anecdotal at best and countered by my having seen many high level campaigns with several starting as high level campaigns. Don't assume everyone is starting at low levels. My mileage definitely varies because other than levels 3-5 (which are similar sans the extra rogue skill proficiency) the rogue always has more skill benefits. A bard subclass knows 2 more proficiencies and that still doesn't add reliable talent or gain expertise at the same rate. I take the skilled feat on every rogue (because I have an extra ASI and it pairs well with reliable talent) and never on lore bards (because 1 less ASI, jack of all trades gives breadth, and peerless skill can be used in a pinch later). Additionally, cunning action allows for hiding as a bonus action (an early skill mod all rogues gain) and rogue subclasses grant additional skill benefits. For example; fast hands, second-story work, and supreme sneak modify rogue skills for the thief subclass over what bard skills gain. It's inequitable to compare rogue base class abilities to bards with loremaster benefits. Bards defeinitely have skill benefits as part of the class but at no point are they superior. Generally they are behind. [/QUOTE]
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Anyone else tired of the miserly begrudging Rogue design of 5E?
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