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<blockquote data-quote="Mallus" data-source="post: 4353149" data-attributes="member: 3887">The real limitation is the number of meaningful opportunities to use spells/skills. Saying a thief can pick a lock an unlimited number of time per day is meaningless unless the party encounters an unlimited number of doors during the adventure.My experience is the exact opposite: it was far more common to see spells used in creative/non-standard ways. Trying to the keep all of that in balance is frankly, a pain in the ass. The Magical Arms Race of measures and countermeasures (even reading about play like that in SepulchraveII's terrific Wyre Story Hours was too much for me). To use a comic book analogy; it's constantly trying to find something for Green Arrow to do when Green Lantern and Martian Manhunter are also in the scene. I prefer a system that makes my job as DM easier, not harder.You're a better man than I, Gunga DM. Recognizing that there are a core set of heavily used skills isn't faulty thinking. Agreed, but that isn't what we're talking about. We discussing whether the magic system should render the skill system obsolete, and if it does. Which it does. I'm sure this comes up a lot in Jesus Christ Superstar d20 (and I would so play a campaign of that). And again, we're not debating whether carpentry has a place in the game, we're debating if it's made useless by the existence of the Fabricate spell. Sure. That's how my group plays. But it doesn't change the fact the spells eclipse skills in 3.5. They are simply more powerful assets, even in 'creative' play, and there limitations are both too easy to circumvent as a player and too difficult to enforce as a DM.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Mallus, post: 4353149, member: 3887"] The real limitation is the number of meaningful opportunities to use spells/skills. Saying a thief can pick a lock an unlimited number of time per day is meaningless unless the party encounters an unlimited number of doors during the adventure. My experience is the exact opposite: it was far more common to see spells used in creative/non-standard ways. Trying to the keep all of that in balance is frankly, a pain in the ass. The Magical Arms Race of measures and countermeasures (even [i]reading[/i] about play like that in SepulchraveII's terrific Wyre Story Hours was too much for me). To use a comic book analogy; it's constantly trying to find something for Green Arrow to do when Green Lantern and Martian Manhunter are also in the scene. I prefer a system that makes my job as DM easier, not harder. You're a better man than I, Gunga DM. Recognizing that there are a core set of heavily used skills isn't faulty thinking. Agreed, but that isn't what we're talking about. We discussing whether the magic system should render the skill system obsolete, and if it does. Which it does. I'm sure this comes up a lot in Jesus Christ Superstar d20 (and I would [i]so[/i] play a campaign of that). And again, we're not debating whether carpentry has a place in the game, we're debating if it's made useless by the existence of the Fabricate spell. Sure. That's how my group plays. But it doesn't change the fact the spells eclipse skills in 3.5. They are simply more powerful assets, even in 'creative' play, and there limitations are both too easy to circumvent as a player and too difficult to enforce as a DM. [/QUOTE]

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