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<blockquote data-quote="satori01" data-source="post: 4360979" data-attributes="member: 7859">Umm w/ the multiclass and ritual caster feats a Fighter can do this at the cost of 4 feats...which given 4e increased feat schedule is not that big of an expenditure.My issue with the 4e &quot;Magic system&quot; is that it really is not very magical.&nbsp; The number of utility powers a Wizard could learn are small, and the amount they can use even smaller, and one could argue the rogue has the greater and more useful amount of utility powers with greater&nbsp; Hit points to boot.4e just decided to eliminate problem areas other than fix them.&nbsp; Illusions....gone for the most part outside the simplest of things, Charm Person gone.&nbsp; Fly is moved to a much higher level.Nuanced battles where the move of the day is casting Dimensional Achor on the BBEG that has been escaping the parties grasp for 1 year of real time gone.&nbsp; Likewise the group planning that is involved in spell caster&nbsp; spell selection,soliciting advice for spell selection gone....no more group help in trying to determine what the BBEG clerical spell caster will have covered for with Spell Immunity etc.The Magic system went from a Market Economy w/ DM oversight, to a very controlled command economy....you will only teleport to &quot;circles&quot; the DM controls, your powers will only do X damage.....and frankly most have very limited to 0 secondary effects, which was the hallmark of spells in 3.5...the dmg output never matched a warriors but the secondary effects made them worth their weight.&nbsp;&nbsp; innovated spell design from later 3.5 products like channeled spells where the player decides what action the spell takes to cast (standard, minor, etc) and the damage amounts does not even make an appearance in 4e.Bottleneck effects still happen, want to run an aquatic adventure and the ritual Water breathing is still needed.The true positives of 4e is that &quot;spells&quot; work like any other powers which mean you can crit and implements act like magic swords ....which would be an easy add to 3.5</blockquote>

[QUOTE="satori01, post: 4360979, member: 7859"] Umm w/ the multiclass and ritual caster feats a Fighter can do this at the cost of 4 feats...which given 4e increased feat schedule is not that big of an expenditure. My issue with the 4e "Magic system" is that it really is not very magical. The number of utility powers a Wizard could learn are small, and the amount they can use even smaller, and one could argue the rogue has the greater and more useful amount of utility powers with greater Hit points to boot. 4e just decided to eliminate problem areas other than fix them. Illusions....gone for the most part outside the simplest of things, Charm Person gone. Fly is moved to a much higher level. Nuanced battles where the move of the day is casting Dimensional Achor on the BBEG that has been escaping the parties grasp for 1 year of real time gone. Likewise the group planning that is involved in spell caster spell selection,soliciting advice for spell selection gone....no more group help in trying to determine what the BBEG clerical spell caster will have covered for with Spell Immunity etc. The Magic system went from a Market Economy w/ DM oversight, to a very controlled command economy....you will only teleport to "circles" the DM controls, your powers will only do X damage.....and frankly most have very limited to 0 secondary effects, which was the hallmark of spells in 3.5...the dmg output never matched a warriors but the secondary effects made them worth their weight. innovated spell design from later 3.5 products like channeled spells where the player decides what action the spell takes to cast (standard, minor, etc) and the damage amounts does not even make an appearance in 4e. Bottleneck effects still happen, want to run an aquatic adventure and the ritual Water breathing is still needed. The true positives of 4e is that "spells" work like any other powers which mean you can crit and implements act like magic swords ....which would be an easy add to 3.5 [/QUOTE]

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