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Anyone playing 4e at the moment?
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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8957180" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>Just going to grab all of these at once and throw out some commentary. Some of this will apply to 4e Skill Challenges in particular, but a lot of it will apply broadly to conflict resolution:</p><p></p><p>* Yes, social conflict is absolutely "targetable" at particular PC in ways that journeys and kindred physical conflicts aren't so targetable (with some exceptions like pursuit and evasion putting particular obstacles/threats to particular people). You'll see some of that emerge fairly clearly (the targeted social obstacles) in the PBP that is under discussion.</p><p></p><p>* Supernatural conflict leans more toward the (targeted vs omni-target) dynamics of social conflict, though it can absolutely be both physical and social. Targeted in a supernatural conflict would be when the spirit rebuffs a particular PC with an adverse vision or a revisionist history of a pivotal moment of their life in effort to undo them. Omni-target would be when a binding circle feeds back violently with arcane/divine energy and either (a) all must deal with it or (b) someone must "jump on the grenade" in some way.</p><p></p><p>* Skill Challenges nested in combats have similar concerns and constraints to that above, but they also have the very important considerations of (a) action economy (how individuals will deploy theirs and what is the best way for Team PC to do so in total), (b) spatial relationship requirements (eg, you can't commit to x Countermeasure when adjacent or Ranged 5 is required and you're beyond that), (c) the ability to marshal a sufficient number to successfully resolve via one of the potential Countermeasures.</p><p></p><p>* When it comes to 4e Skill Challenges, I see threat/obstacle manifestation and fiction/gamestate perturbance as binned into multiple parameters:</p><p></p><p>1) The sheer numbers. Increased level comes with some increase in difficulty (typically +1 Medium or Hard DC or perhaps both). This increase is meant to relay to the players enhanced duress and enhanced threat-lean toward the following Tier. The combat equivalent, imo, is a high encounter budget combat + battlefield array + encounter budget that is spent on "loading out" a combat in such a way that challenges the primary faculties/lines of play that this group setup employs reliably/well.</p><p></p><p>2) Complexity is a different axis imo. In all the games I've run, I have not seen a legitimately discernible increase in macro-failure rate as you increase in complexity. I would say this is because (a) you have so many toys at your disposal natively within PC build and Team PC to resolve obstacles and (b) your tool-kit expands significantly as complexity increases from 3 to 5. Advantages and a large number of buffing Secondary Skills becomes huge. Line up a a mediocre Trained Skill deployment + Secondary Skill Buff + Circumstance Bonus from an Encounter Power (or a reroll) and wager an Advantage for 2 x Successes against a Hard DC? That is a massive, positive change in gamestate </p><p>for Team PC. </p><p></p><p>I see Complexity mirroring # of Obstacles formulation in Missions/Adventures in Mouse Guard/Torchbearer or Disposition/number of adversaries in those same Conflicts or depth of adversary dice pools in Dogs + the ability to bring in free-floating dice to extend that depth.</p><p>3) Thematic threat/obstacle categories (think AW Threats/Moves here) and how they intercede between the evinced micro-goal of this situation and the macro-goal of the conflict at large (and how those threats/obstacles emerge for or outside of particular PC archetypes).</p><p></p><p>4) The consequence-space of any given matrix of <em>action x, y, z</em> vs <em>threat/obstacle n</em> (how does the fiction change positively or adversely and what is the looming cost for failure of x vs y vs z against n. </p><p></p><p>5) Finally, the considerations for follow-on conflicts, one of which would be the strategic considerations from Extended Rest to Extended Rest ("Adventuring Day" gas tank) and the longitudinal considerations that extend beyond that (what enemies/thematic threats do we want to accrete/tangle with as this Tier unfolds downstream of these moments of play?).</p><p></p><p>[HR][/HR]</p><p></p><p>Anyway, some thoughts to engage with, or not, at your leisure.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 8957180, member: 6696971"] Just going to grab all of these at once and throw out some commentary. Some of this will apply to 4e Skill Challenges in particular, but a lot of it will apply broadly to conflict resolution: * Yes, social conflict is absolutely "targetable" at particular PC in ways that journeys and kindred physical conflicts aren't so targetable (with some exceptions like pursuit and evasion putting particular obstacles/threats to particular people). You'll see some of that emerge fairly clearly (the targeted social obstacles) in the PBP that is under discussion. * Supernatural conflict leans more toward the (targeted vs omni-target) dynamics of social conflict, though it can absolutely be both physical and social. Targeted in a supernatural conflict would be when the spirit rebuffs a particular PC with an adverse vision or a revisionist history of a pivotal moment of their life in effort to undo them. Omni-target would be when a binding circle feeds back violently with arcane/divine energy and either (a) all must deal with it or (b) someone must "jump on the grenade" in some way. * Skill Challenges nested in combats have similar concerns and constraints to that above, but they also have the very important considerations of (a) action economy (how individuals will deploy theirs and what is the best way for Team PC to do so in total), (b) spatial relationship requirements (eg, you can't commit to x Countermeasure when adjacent or Ranged 5 is required and you're beyond that), (c) the ability to marshal a sufficient number to successfully resolve via one of the potential Countermeasures. * When it comes to 4e Skill Challenges, I see threat/obstacle manifestation and fiction/gamestate perturbance as binned into multiple parameters: 1) The sheer numbers. Increased level comes with some increase in difficulty (typically +1 Medium or Hard DC or perhaps both). This increase is meant to relay to the players enhanced duress and enhanced threat-lean toward the following Tier. The combat equivalent, imo, is a high encounter budget combat + battlefield array + encounter budget that is spent on "loading out" a combat in such a way that challenges the primary faculties/lines of play that this group setup employs reliably/well. 2) Complexity is a different axis imo. In all the games I've run, I have not seen a legitimately discernible increase in macro-failure rate as you increase in complexity. I would say this is because (a) you have so many toys at your disposal natively within PC build and Team PC to resolve obstacles and (b) your tool-kit expands significantly as complexity increases from 3 to 5. Advantages and a large number of buffing Secondary Skills becomes huge. Line up a a mediocre Trained Skill deployment + Secondary Skill Buff + Circumstance Bonus from an Encounter Power (or a reroll) and wager an Advantage for 2 x Successes against a Hard DC? That is a massive, positive change in gamestate for Team PC. I see Complexity mirroring # of Obstacles formulation in Missions/Adventures in Mouse Guard/Torchbearer or Disposition/number of adversaries in those same Conflicts or depth of adversary dice pools in Dogs + the ability to bring in free-floating dice to extend that depth. 3) Thematic threat/obstacle categories (think AW Threats/Moves here) and how they intercede between the evinced micro-goal of this situation and the macro-goal of the conflict at large (and how those threats/obstacles emerge for or outside of particular PC archetypes). 4) The consequence-space of any given matrix of [I]action x, y, z[/I] vs [I]threat/obstacle n[/I] (how does the fiction change positively or adversely and what is the looming cost for failure of x vs y vs z against n. 5) Finally, the considerations for follow-on conflicts, one of which would be the strategic considerations from Extended Rest to Extended Rest ("Adventuring Day" gas tank) and the longitudinal considerations that extend beyond that (what enemies/thematic threats do we want to accrete/tangle with as this Tier unfolds downstream of these moments of play?). [HR][/HR] Anyway, some thoughts to engage with, or not, at your leisure. [/QUOTE]
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