D&D General anyone think that vancian magic is limited?

[Incenjucar]

Vancian really isn't the factor here anyways. Vancian is just how flexible magic use is on a per-day basis.

There are plenty of other magic systems you could use that would still have equivalent limits, like the various psionics rules systems.

 

[glass]

I think it is restrictions that make magic feel magical; the odd little rules, the lacunae. For example, in Wheel of Time* you can make a bridge with the one power and then walk over it, but it has a very limited length (I forget the exact figure, but I think it was about 15 feet). Try to take a single step beyond that, and the whole thing collapses, because beyond that counts as flying and magical flight is impossible (or at least a whole lot more difficult). IIRC they never actually refer to The One Power as magic, but it feels magical to me, because of things like that.

Which I guess is why I like vancian magic, and was saddened when 5e ditched it (although I do like other kinds of magic as well - including AE/5e-style readying).

(* The books - I am pretty sure it has not come up in the TV series yet....)

 

[FrozenNorth]

Lots of good points here, but I’ll add another. If magic can do anything, why do druids, clerics, warlocks, sorcerers, bards and wizards need to be separate classes?

 

[Ancalagon]

Yawn
PCs-as-almost-gods sounds utterly boring.

Give Exalted a try!

 

[Ancalagon]

Lots of good points here, but I’ll add another. If magic can do anything, why do druids, clerics, warlocks, sorcerers, bards and wizards need to be separate classes?

Because there are many roads to eldritch power, and how the character gains those powers can be an interesting RP element, and adds mechanical variety to the game

 

[cbwjm]

DnD magic is limited, in that each spell has distinct effects, but it can still be powerful. So you end up with powerful but limited effects in most cases allowing the caster to do almost anything as long as they have the right spell. Exceptions tend to be spells like wish and the 2e spell cantrip which grant wide choice of effects (of vastly different scales of power)

Wider magic would probably be something like the dragonlance saga system where you could do anything within specific areas on the fly, without needing a specific spell. If you have access to the realm of pyromancy, you don't need to look for a fireball spell to cast one, you do it at will as long as you have the spell points available.

DnD has also had other more powerful magic than the standard spell system, mythals being one which springs to mind, and I think there is still room for powerful ritual magic, similar to the old epic spells or true dweomers of previous editions, that allow for powerful effects that can't just be cast at will.

 

[jgsugden]

Yawn
PCs-as-almost-gods sounds utterly boring.

As a note: When you describe any fantasy concept as boring, it is generally an indication that you lack the imagination to see the potential for how to use it.

We had amazing D&D games with PCs of incredible levels of power in older editions, especially AD&D, and many of us had a blast doing it. I'd say almost all - because why would you continue to play at that level if you were not having fun?

These days a lot of players and DMs say that they're only happy with levels 5 to 10. Personally, I think those groups would benefit from seeing some successful groups playing at levels 1 to 4 and 11+.

 

[Corinnguard]

There needs to be ways to limit spell utility for game balance and while original style Vancian is a horrible mechanic, the updated version with its spell points, exchangable slots etc is better.

I prefer skill based magic which would allow a caster to do anything provided they can beat the DC

Why is there no spellcasting skill in 5e D&D? curious If a caster wanted to upcast a spell into a higher-level spell slot or alter the nature of a spell via metamagic, all they would need to do is beat a DC. They beat the DC, the newly altered spell is successfully cast. If they don't beat the DC, then the spell either fails to be cast or it is cast without the enhancements.

There ought to be something here if you roll a natural 20 or a natural 1 during a spellcasting skill check too. Natural 20= your spell does something extra. Natural 1=the spell goes wild (as in wild magic).