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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ridley's Cohort" data-source="post: 698352" data-attributes="member: 545">The difference is an AoO is an action outside of the normal initiative.  That is a very important difference.Let's consider Cleave and Cleave only.If X & Y are fighting monster M, Y being quickly killed during the normal initiative can never adversely affect X.  In the absolutely worse possible case, X dies just as quickly as he would if Y were not there at all.  No complaints about Cleave there.If you consider AoOs, it is quite possible for Y to get X killed by provoking an extra out of sequence attack that is transferred to X by Cleave.Even I admit that is not obviously wrong.  But if you think about it long enough you will come to realize, right or wrong, it is a more than a little peculiar.Why is it peculiar?  It is peculiar because the normal justification for AoOs is that you if drop your guard someone can sneak in a free attack.  Why does someone else dropping their guard cause me to drop my guard?It is peculiar that an inaction (dropping one's guard) that might be 15 or 20 feet away (or more) can affect my square in a significant way.The Big Swing explanation does not cut it if you consider the D&D mechanics.  One of the fundamental assumptions is that each combatant is continuously swinging at every enemy within their threat zone.  Why does does my enemy drawing blood 15 feet away mysteriously make one of these countless swings that are already whizzing about my head connect with me when it wouldn't otherwise?It only makes sense in a Keystone Kop kind of way, where the clown on the other side of the room slips on a banana peel then tosses a pie he was holding into the air and that pie lands on my head.  In the abstract, that is exactly what is happening with AoO + Cleave.  If we were playing Toon or Paranoia, I would not give it a second thought.  Since we are playing a herioc game I think it is out of place.IMO, it would be best to house rule the AoO + Cleave out of the game.  You are welcome to disagree, but please accept that I have carefully considered both the likely play consequences and the rules as written.  (I do understand how Cleave works.)  This is more a matter of taste than a black and white issue.Is this really a huge deal?  No, it isn't.  I have seen it come up a couple times in real play.The main downsides are (again):(1) It discourages hard-pressed PCs from retreating -- not only could your character die, but you might kill your friend's character in the process. Players that are too thickheaded to retreat their PCs against an overwhelming foe is a very common DM complaint. If you accidentally wipe out the party for attempting to do so, you are teaching them a bad habit.(2) It creates an ugly loophole for generating "extra" attacks. Example: Wizard summons 3 weak creatures to rush in and attack party Fighter with reach weapon, so that the Fighter will gain 3 bonus attacks on a high SR Monster.</blockquote>

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