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<blockquote data-quote="Artoomis" data-source="post: 112357" data-attributes="member: 111">&quot;Harping on semantics?&quot;&nbsp; You made a clear an unequivocal statement - no semantics about it.&nbsp; Yes, I was having a little fun, but I certainly was not &quot;harping on semantics.&quot;&nbsp; It seems that when you get exacting about language its just a good, legitimate point, but if I do it I'm harping on semantics <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />&nbsp; Ah, well, moving on...Anyway, the whole issue come down to when are touch attacks (and ranged touch attacks) like weapons, and when are they not like weapons.&nbsp; Obviously it varies by situation.For example, touch attacks are like weapons when it comes to not provoking an AoO for an unarmed attack.&nbsp; Ranged touch attacks, however, are not like weapons when it come to provoking an AoO for using a ranged weapon.You think they count as weapons for Coup de Grace, I do not.Clearly, neither of use really believes they are weapons for all purposes, or that anything that does damage, requires an attack roll and can critical is a weapon for all purposes. My actual serious point to make is that such things as improved unarmed attack, touch attacks and ranged touch attacks sometimes count as weapons and sometimes do not.&nbsp; It's not always clear from the rules which they should be, or even what the intent of the writers/editors was in any particular circumstance.That, I think, is something on which we can agree.I think I need a new item in my Guide that specifically addresses when an unarmed attack of one sort or another is considered the same as if you were armed with a weapon.&nbsp; That should be worthy of a pretty good entry in there, I should think.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Artoomis, post: 112357, member: 111"] "Harping on semantics?" You made a clear an unequivocal statement - no semantics about it. Yes, I was having a little fun, but I certainly was not "harping on semantics." It seems that when you get exacting about language its just a good, legitimate point, but if I do it I'm harping on semantics :) Ah, well, moving on... Anyway, the whole issue come down to when are touch attacks (and ranged touch attacks) like weapons, and when are they not like weapons. Obviously it varies by situation. For example, touch attacks are like weapons when it comes to not provoking an AoO for an unarmed attack. Ranged touch attacks, however, are not like weapons when it come to provoking an AoO for using a ranged weapon. You think they count as weapons for Coup de Grace, I do not. Clearly, neither of use really believes they are weapons for all purposes, or that anything that does damage, requires an attack roll and can critical is a weapon for all purposes. My actual serious point to make is that such things as improved unarmed attack, touch attacks and ranged touch attacks sometimes count as weapons and sometimes do not. It's not always clear from the rules which they should be, or even what the intent of the writers/editors was in any particular circumstance. That, I think, is something on which we can agree. I think I need a new item in my Guide that specifically addresses when an unarmed attack of one sort or another is considered the same as if you were armed with a weapon. That should be worthy of a pretty good entry in there, I should think. [/QUOTE]

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